Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: ImagePrint Review and Demo  (Read 7183 times)

dchew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1020
    • Dave Chew Photography
ImagePrint Review and Demo
« on: September 13, 2016, 06:50:43 am »

Thank you Kevin & John for the article. I use ImagePrint (IP) with my 7900 and like it especially for the profiles and for B&W printing. I have a few questions about the workflow:

1. I have always exported sized images for two reasons: First, I have no idea how IP resizes, especially downsizing images. Second, I do not know anything about how IP output sharpens (I think this is new for IP 10 but not sure). Since by default what I don't know I don't trust (!?), I've been sizing and sharpening in LR prior to output. This is of course more cumbersome. It would be simpler to export a full size image and use that for multiple print sizes and paper types as Kevin suggests. What do other users do?

2. Kevin specifically: I know the overall message in the article was that IP makes printing easy, so what you showed in the video may be simplified to get that message across. For example, I doubt anyone would convert to B&W on the fly in IP like you showed there. But I do like the toning features in IP so I output a neutral file and tone in IP. Is this how you use IP normally?

3. One gripe I have: I wish IP made it easier to switch rendering intents, and I am not sure I understand what settings do what. As far as I know you have to go into Preferences. But when swapping between relcol/perceptual I don't detect the image changing on screen as I do when soft proofing in LR. There is a section under IMAGE PROPERTIES where you can chose rendering intent for the input profile, but I assume that is off unless you switch input profiles while viewing since it says "Embedded profile applied." Either that or it is for going from the image profile to the monitor profile?

Dave
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 06:55:27 am by dchew »
Logged

Rado

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 247
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2016, 10:04:37 am »

I've watched the videos and haven't seen anything that would convince me personally to basically double the price of my printer (P800) by purchasing IP.

The demonstration was very trivial - so you can place an image on a page and center it. Big deal (and notice how the image didn't stay centered when Kevin was changing its dimensions and he had to center it again afterwards. This is an advanced printing&layout program?).
Logged

dchew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1020
    • Dave Chew Photography
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2016, 11:17:41 am »

I agree the videos covered basic topics. For me the benefits are:
  • Good reliable profiles for Epson printers.
  • Not only the profile but also the printer/paper settings. For example, when I use Canson Baryta, IP sets the printer media type to Watercolor Paper, which certainly isn't an obvious choice. Often when you download a paper profile from the manufacturer the paper settings don't match the printer options directly. How much this affects the print I don't know, but it covers things like platen gap, etc. I haven't had a head strike since using IP. When printing through LR I always have to manually set the PG to Wide or I get head strikes.
  • B&W Toning: You get to see the effects on the paper as you experiment with tints. Using the Epson Advanced B&W you just have to experiment and print - there is no print preview. Using LR, you can soft proof but it is a bit clunky for experimenting with tones.
  • Improved permanence in B&W printing.
  • The layout features are helpful, but I don't see them as dramatically better than LR. I do have occasional frustrations with LR's layout capabilities that do not exist with IP.

All that being said, I will soon be looking to upgrade from my 7900 to a 44" printer. The cost of IP makes that tough to justify. I have to look into whether any of my 7900 payment could be applied to a printer upgrade.

Dave
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20646
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2016, 11:57:03 am »

I agree the videos covered basic topics. For me the benefits are:
  • Good reliable profiles for Epson printers.
How are they behaving with saturated blues? In the old days (V6 or so when I was using IP), they would shift magenta. Not too good. Be interested in how you find this file output's with respect to blues:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Gamut_Test_File_Flat.tif
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

dchew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1020
    • Dave Chew Photography
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2016, 12:34:40 pm »

Andrew,
I did that test about a year ago. Here is a photo of the results (not for web evaluation, but just to show context).
Left = My own profile
Center = Canson canned profile
Right = ImagePrint profile

I don't have the ability to measure, but I would gladly send you these prints if you are interested. Anecdotally I can say this:
  • The blue tones are very similar, although Bill's Balls look the worst in the IP profile. Note they look much worse on the web.
  • For this specific case, I ranked the profiles 1-Mine, 2-IP, 3-Canson

So I saw no magenta shift.



Dave
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20646
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2016, 12:44:39 pm »

  • The blue tones are very similar, although Bill's Balls look the worst in the IP profile.
They certainly do. Thanks.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2016, 01:49:31 pm »

I don't know why people just don't spend their money on the i1 X-Rite software package which is a lot more useful for everything.




They certainly do. Thanks.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20646
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 01:52:04 pm »

I don't know why people just don't spend their money on the i1 X-Rite software package which is a lot more useful for everything.
To be fair, you can use that product to create (better) ICC profiles for use in IP. I can't recall what one used to set in the product such you could print a target to do this, might have changed but at least at one time, it was possible. My point is, the IP profiles ColorByte creates are not best in class, never were. John P there will be pissed but it's not the first time I've tried to illustrate that to him and others.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

dchew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1020
    • Dave Chew Photography
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 02:10:56 pm »

I will say I see little benefit to printing through IP in color, aside from 1) trying new paper without having to generate profiles (I have the i1 X-Rite package too), And 2) on a job where I'm printing 10+ large images, it makes the workflow easier with fewer mistakes. At least for me.

I like it for B&W though.

Dave
Logged

RMW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1000
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 04:55:11 pm »

Hi All.
After 5 years of trying to get a consistently good match, I'm still challenged by soft proofing. (I use all the recommended protocols.But I waste a lot of paper and ink.)
Maybe my eyesight fluctuates ?
Does anyone know of an easy to use soft-proof tool ?
I find IP too expensive just for soft-proofing and not useful enough for anything else.
Any suggestions most welcome.
Thanks.
Richard
Logged

Stefan Ohlsson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 174
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 04:59:12 pm »

To be fair, you can use that product to create (better) ICC profiles for use in IP. I can't recall what one used to set in the product such you could print a target to do this, might have changed but at least at one time, it was possible. My point is, the IP profiles ColorByte creates are not best in class, never were. John P there will be pissed but it's not the first time I've tried to illustrate that to him and others.
Yes, you can still print targets to create your own profiles. And you can tag them so you get the correct resolution and media settings automatically. You can't make a B&W profile, so for B&W you have to use the profiles from Colorbyte.

When I started printing on the Epson LF printers, the differences between using the Epson driver and ImagePrint was HUUGE. Nowadays the differences is much smaller, but I can still see a difference, especially with dark prints with lot of subtle nuances in the dark areas. I get an even better result if I create my own profile, so for me it's not a question to make my own profiles or to use IP. I use ImagePrint and I create my own profiles for some papers.
Logged

Stefan Ohlsson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 174
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 05:15:25 pm »

Hi All.
After 5 years of trying to get a consistently good match, I'm still challenged by soft proofing. (I use all the recommended protocols.But I waste a lot of paper and ink.)
Maybe my eyesight fluctuates ?
Does anyone know of an easy to use soft-proof tool ?
I find IP too expensive just for soft-proofing and not useful enough for anything else.

If you do any B&W printing you will find the quality of that is so much better than Epson Advanced B&W. So ImagePrint saves me the expense of having a printer with B&W inks. And I like the soft proofing in IP.

Today Eizo announced a program called Quick Color Match. Together with their latest ColorEdge monitors it is supposed to give you a much better soft proof with some of the printers and papers from Epson and Canon. Very easy to use and it's free. But you have to have a ColorEdge monitor ;-)
Logged

RMW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1000
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 06:15:03 pm »

Stefan,
Thanks for the recommendations.
I do print b&w and follow Jeff Schwewe's work flow- with good success-usually.
Don't have an Eizo monitor. Use an iMac.
Will keep on lookin'.
Richard
Logged

dchew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1020
    • Dave Chew Photography
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2016, 05:55:49 am »

I know we've slid into the usual "is IP worth it" discussion, which is fine. But I am still curious if anyone has info regarding resizing and sharpening within IP.

I will try some tests over the weekend.
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2016, 07:45:47 am »

I know we've slid into the usual "is IP worth it" discussion, which is fine. But I am still curious if anyone has info regarding resizing and sharpening within IP.

I will try some tests over the weekend.

Hi Dave,

The attached file will tell you if down-sampling is done well, non-linear gamma can cause artifacts at 100% size.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

dchew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1020
    • Dave Chew Photography
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2016, 08:19:52 am »

Thanks Bart!
Logged

FrankStark

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2016, 08:50:49 am »

I am a newcomer to printing, working out my work flow before I take the printer plunge. If "Back to printing" is the motto, I am trying to accomplish this using a Mac, an Benq monitor, and Capture One - plus whatever plugins and other software I have to use.  There have been two "easy," end of process software packages reviewed or touted on this site: PrinTao8 and ImagePrint. Neither exactly encourage printing for the common man, with high prices that depend on printer "carriage" size. Should the motto be "Back to printing for the rich"? What alternatives are there for the Mac at a lower price that do not require self profiling and a degree in IT.

A question at the beginning of this thread was about final sharpening. I understand that final sharpening should take place after resizing, however that is done. What, if anything, is special about the IP final sharpening? IP might save the trouble of creating TIFF files with different sizes, but this is not all that onerous considering the price you pay to IP to do it for you - before final sharpening is applied and printing is done. What other advantages does the IP sharpening method have.

F.


Logged
"We shoot the things that move us in ways that will move others."  David duChemin

N80

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 621
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2016, 09:41:20 am »

Frank, I think this is a good question. Possibly off topic for this thread. Maybe as a new post we could generate a discussion on this topic. This forum is populated by folks who take printing very seriously and take it to what many of us would consider extremes. I get the sneaking feeling that they sort of enjoy the minutiae and technological nuances of the process. That is not said as a criticism but for many of us that level of file massaging and control is 1) outside of our price range regarding hardware and software, 2) outside of our comfort zone....in other words, takes the fun out of the process and 3) might not ever yield the sort of subtle nuances of tone and sharpness that are important to or even visible to us.

So yes, it would be interesting to look at and compare two or three levels of workflow that vary by expense and experience. This would need to include an open and honest assessment of results. This can be difficult because 1) we really can't critique prints that we can't see on line, 2) those of us who are not experts may not have eyes and brains trained to see the subtle nuances so desired by the high end/high tech printer (people) here and 3) those who have invested high levels of time, expense and expertise might not be willing (subconsciously) to concede the qualities of say, a lower level workflow print...speculation here, but certainly a plausible hurdle.

Having said that, as one who appreciates fine art B&W prints, even if I might not be able to make them, I would not want it to be assumed that because I cannot make a 44" fine aft B&W print that I do not know what I'm looking at or how to properly appreciate it.
Logged
George

"What is truth?" Pontius  Pilate

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2016, 09:53:25 am »

There have been two "easy," end of process software packages reviewed or touted on this site: PrinTao8 and ImagePrint. Neither exactly encourage printing for the common man, with high prices that depend on printer "carriage" size. Should the motto be "Back to printing for the rich"? What alternatives are there for the Mac at a lower price that do not require self profiling and a degree in IT.

Hi Frank,

Although these programs have specific strengths and weaknesses, the high price is avoidable with Qimage Ultimate (currently for US$ 69.99).

While a Windows program, many use it on a Mac by running it under Parallels (currently US$ 79.99) or a similar virtualization program. It uses the printer manufacturer supplied printer driver, and therefore supports whatever format the printer can handle, no restrictions in width, and whatever paper profiles you can supply, either manufacturer supplied or selfmade.

But discussing Qimage is something for another thread, just wanted to let you know that there are options at a different price level, so don't despair.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20646
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: ImagePrint Review and Demo
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2016, 10:23:42 am »

If you do any B&W printing you will find the quality of that is so much better than Epson Advanced B&W. So ImagePrint saves me the expense of having a printer with B&W inks. And I like the soft proofing in IP.
Again, years since I used IP but I agree, it's strength is in B&W output. If you are really serious about this kind of printing, it's well worth testing.
Quote
Today Eizo announced a program called Quick Color Match. Together with their latest ColorEdge monitors it is supposed to give you a much better soft proof with some of the printers and papers from
Do they explain how it's supposed to provide a much better soft proof? I can think of a few things like the UI surround and how the soft proof with ink and paper simulation is shown to the user via it's update on-screen could be better than what Adobe provides, but outside of that, scratching my head how, using the same ICC profiles, it's 'much better'.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up