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Author Topic: So I Made My First Profile  (Read 7073 times)

HowardG

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So I Made My First Profile
« on: September 11, 2016, 10:14:25 pm »

So, with the help I received on this forum I made my first profile for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag this weekend using the i1 Pro 2 and the iProfiler software and it went well. I then used the Digital Outback profile test image that you folks recommended to test my profile vs the one that you download from Hahnemuhle's website. They were pretty similar. It seemed like mine was perhaps slightly more vibrant in the yellows and reds by just a bit. The blacks looked similar as did most other parts of the evaluation.

My question relates to the black squares. My blacks looked a little lighter at level 24 than the canned profile. In bright light and tilting the paper I could see, on my profile, a slight, very slight difference of the square from the surrounding black down to level 4 or 6 while in the canned profile it was 8 or 10. I could see a slight amount of ink in the level 253 square in both and perhaps just the tiniest hint in the 254 square of both.  The white squares at high levels were easier to define than the black squares at low levels.

What isn't exactly clear from the article on evaluating the image is if this result is 'good' or if you should be able to discern different levels of black all the way down to level 2 or not with your eyes (I will admit from a vision standpoint my eyes are not the most perfect). If you should easily be able to do so would using the Media Configuration Tool with Canon printers to optimize the paper handling (and dare I even mention playing with the ink laydown which scares me a bit :) likely something that would improve this....or is it very good already?

It passes in all other aspects of the test image described in the article!

Thanks

Howard

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Mark D Segal

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2016, 10:58:10 pm »

The media configuration tool for Canon printers is useful for creating Custom Media Types with all of their associated settings and having this stored like "Presets" (similar to the ones Canon provides for its own papers) for each time you want to print with the same paper/profile combination.

Generally, distinguishing differences of Blacks down to Level 2 is something not many could do. Most people I've ever discussed it with would be able to discern differences of blackness from about L*4 or a bit beyond, but below that it all looks pretty much the same.

For deciding whether you should be satisfied with the profile, look at the test print made with the Canon profile and the one made with your profile against the soft-proofed version that you see on your display. The print more faithful to the soft-proofed display photo is made with the better profile. There are more scientific ways of measuring profile accuracy relative to file values if you want to get into that.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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HowardG

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2016, 11:18:05 pm »

The media configuration tool for Canon printers is useful for creating Custom Media Types with all of their associated settings and having this stored like "Presets" (similar to the ones Canon provides for its own papers) for each time you want to print with the same paper/profile combination.

Generally, distinguishing differences of Blacks down to Level 2 is something not many could do. Most people I've ever discussed it with would be able to discern differences of blackness from about L*4 or a bit beyond, but below that it all looks pretty much the same.

For deciding whether you should be satisfied with the profile, look at the test print made with the Canon profile and the one made with your profile against the soft-proofed version that you see on your display. The print more faithful to the soft-proofed display photo is made with the better profile. There are more scientific ways of measuring profile accuracy relative to file values if you want to get into that.

Thanks Mark!  I did just that, though at this point it was just with one print. To be honest, in soft proofing I really couldn't tell a whole lot of difference between the two profiles, mine and the one by Hahnemuhle. Same for the prints. In some ways I guess that's a good thing in terms of showing I can get it right. Though now that I think about it I only did it with the relative colorimetric rendering and I guess I should do it with perceptual as well.

But the fact that you say that most people can't discern below L 4 makes me think things are OK. I haven't used it but I believe the MCTool can also adjust feed speed and ink density for any paper to store as a preset along with the media setting etc. Was wondering if a lower ink density would separate the low level blacks a bit more but I think I'm probably starting to 'overthink' it!

Thanks 

Howard
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HowardG

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2016, 11:20:30 pm »

By the way I used 1733 patches as this seemed to be around the number that was recommended and the i1 chart at this number of patches also had a good number of neutral grays.

Howard
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Mark D Segal

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2016, 11:20:56 pm »

The profile itself and the media type settings are there to deal with ink density. Playing with that via profile adjustments is tricky stuff. It looks as if you are doing OK.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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HowardG

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 11:02:28 am »

The profile itself and the media type settings are there to deal with ink density. Playing with that via profile adjustments is tricky stuff. It looks as if you are doing OK.

That's exactly what I wanted to know in that the media and profile deals with the ink density. I want to keep my hands off ink density settings otherwise there really will be too many variables and I will make myself crazy!

Interestingly, I started work on profiling Epson Hot Press Bright White paper which I used a good bit of when I had my Epson 7900.  Ran off about a dozen of the Keith Cooper media choice test charts (for the Hahnemuhle I just used the media settings that Hahnemuhle recommended for their profiles). I would have thought that the HW Fine Art or one of the fine art media settings would have been best but on first glance (will need a more careful look tonight) it appears that one of the Coated Paper media settings will be the best.

I presume that since it is printed without color management that the best media setting choice is simply the one that seems to show the best separation between most of the colored squares?

Howard
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Mark D Segal

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 11:34:01 am »


I presume that since it is printed without color management that the best media setting choice is simply the one that seems to show the best separation between most of the colored squares?

Howard
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Not quite. Printing the profiling targets without colour management is simply to insure that the printer's "native" behaviour is being properly characterized. What you want to examine is the results after printing one or more of the printer test pages, e.g. the Outback, with the profiles you made. Proper colour separation between squares in the prints depends on what the separation is in the image file itself and how they appear under softproof on your display.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 11:49:55 am »

Generally, when I optimize black ink on the 9800 I print a series of RGB values directly from (0,0,0) to (255,255,255) in steps of one, scan them, and pick the set that is the smoothest without sacrificing too much the DMax. Then assign the settings to something memorable.
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HowardG

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2016, 12:15:29 pm »

Not quite. Printing the profiling targets without colour management is simply to insure that the printer's "native" behaviour is being properly characterized. What you want to examine is the results after printing one or more of the printer test pages, e.g. the Outback, with the profiles you made. Proper colour separation between squares in the prints depends on what the separation is in the image file itself and how they appear under softproof on your display.

So then what I really need help with is how does one pick the 'best' media setting on which to print the patches for profiling and to use for printing on that particular paper (since it is an Epson paper on a Canon printer there is no 'manufacturer recommendation' for a media setting). Is it the best general separation of patches prior to doing the profiling? Or something else? If it is separation, then is separation in any one particular color or in darks/lights more important than another. By that I mean I suspect that separation in some regions might be better on one media and but other regions might separate better on another.

The way to choose the best media setting has me a little confused

Howard
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HowardG

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2016, 12:17:27 pm »

Generally, when I optimize black ink on the 9800 I print a series of RGB values directly from (0,0,0) to (255,255,255) in steps of one, scan them, and pick the set that is the smoothest without sacrificing too much the DMax. Then assign the settings to something memorable.

Doug, I understand the printing of the patches but not sure I get the rest of what you are implying

Howard
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Mark D Segal

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2016, 03:40:55 pm »

So then what I really need help with is how does one pick the 'best' media setting on which to print the patches for profiling and to use for printing on that particular paper (since it is an Epson paper on a Canon printer there is no 'manufacturer recommendation' for a media setting). Is it the best general separation of patches prior to doing the profiling? Or something else? If it is separation, then is separation in any one particular color or in darks/lights more important than another. By that I mean I suspect that separation in some regions might be better on one media and but other regions might separate better on another.

The way to choose the best media setting has me a little confused

Howard

Use the Canon paper or third-party paper setting in the Canon driver that would look closest to the Epson paper you will be profiling. Hence, for example, if you were profiling Epson Premium Luster paper, you would most likely select the Canon Pro Luster paper as the Media Type. The most important aspects of selecting the Media Type are (i) that it be reasonably close in character to the paper you will be profiling, and (ii) once you make a profile with a particular Media Type, you use the same Media Type for making the prints from that profile. With Canon printers you can also make-up custom Media Types using the MCT.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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HowardG

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2016, 03:51:33 pm »

Use the Canon paper or third-party paper setting in the Canon driver that would look closest to the Epson paper you will be profiling. Hence, for example, if you were profiling Epson Premium Luster paper, you would most likely select the Canon Pro Luster paper as the Media Type. The most important aspects of selecting the Media Type are (i) that it be reasonably close in character to the paper you will be profiling, and (ii) once you make a profile with a particular Media Type, you use the same Media Type for making the prints from that profile. With Canon printers you can also make-up custom Media Types using the MCT.

Would this be the case  even if the color grid test image look better on another media type?  For example the Epson Hot Press Bright White I would think is very similar in type to Hahnemuhle Photo Rag which uses HW Fine Art paper in the Canon Driver and the recommended Epson media setting for Epson printers is Ultrasmooth Fine Art, which would also indicate a fine art Canon setting.  Will look more carefully tonight but what if one of the Canon 'Coated Paper' settings looks better?

Howard
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HowardG

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2016, 03:52:54 pm »

By the way, I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass.....just trying to learn how to do this most correctly.....lest anyone misinterpret my questions  :)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2016, 03:54:11 pm »

Use the media type that most closely matches the characteristics of the paper you are profiling in terms of surface texture, thickness, weight and tone.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2016, 03:55:43 pm »

By the way, I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass.....just trying to learn how to do this most correctly.....lest anyone misinterpret my questions  :)

Not a problem - good questions for someone starting out with this.

Just think of how much easier life would be if XRite would get off their backsides and provide a manual.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2016, 10:28:04 pm »

Not a problem - good questions for someone starting out with this.

Just think of how much easier life would be if XRite would get off their backsides and provide a manual.

Hear hear!
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howardm

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2016, 11:40:37 am »

We can dream !!

vartkes

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2016, 10:36:29 pm »

X-Rite providing a useful manual???? Why would they - we all bought the kit without it!

Mark D Segal

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Re: So I Made My First Profile
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2016, 07:25:36 am »

X-Rite providing a useful manual???? Why would they - we all bought the kit without it!

There are different kinds of companies on this planet: some are long-sighted and have a sense of responsibility, while others don't. The more of the market a company controls the more irresponsible it can afford to be until competition becomes effective; but the sensible, socially responsible ones won't wait for that to happen - they have an ethic that carries them and their clientele loyally over the long term to the benefit of themselves and their customers. Obviously, the Danaher Corporation hasn't internalized that philosophy yet, or they have but failed to instill it in their X-Rite subsidiary.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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bteifeld

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Re: So I Made My First Profile- canon media configuration tool 'assist' feature
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2016, 09:14:57 am »

Mr. Segal:

I am writing to ask about your experience with a feature in the
Canon Media Configuration Tool that is designed to help in
choosing a media type.

In the plain paper, coated paper, photo/art/proofing paper
matte, and photo/art/proofing paper glossy paper categories
an assist button is enabled which asks for either the gsm
weight of the paper, or its thickness. Once answered, the
tool then selects one of the paper types in that paper category.

Have you used this feature and do you think it is helpful?
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