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Author Topic: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?  (Read 5880 times)

André Denis

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Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« on: September 04, 2016, 10:50:30 am »

Hello,

I want to replace my dead 7900, ideally with a printer that i can change the head, should it become necessary.   That means the canon pro-2000.  But is the color rendering to my taste? I ask this because at my local (Montreal) store, which now sells the Canon large format (significant step isn't it?), they also displayed photos printer by Canon on a Pro-1000. Now every single one of them had much much too saturated color.   Not unlike, for those of you who remember, the cibachrome look.   Never felt liked it.
Since all of them were like that, i'm wondering if Canon's ink is biased towards oversaturation, or does it only reflect Canon's marketing taste in color?
In other worlds, if i print on, say Hahnemuhle, using profile's for Epson (7000) and profile's for Canon (pro-2000), will the color rendering be very similar, in all nuances, or will the canon show no nuance at all? :)
Thanks
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2016, 11:02:57 am »

There is no reason for the Canon Pro-2000 to produce consistently over-saturated colours unless the profiles are no good or the photos they selected to show have that bias for marketing purposes (most likely, because many people are impressed with high saturation). I've run several printer test images through it and they look fine.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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keithcooper

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2016, 11:36:47 am »

Nope...  definitely something they are doing wrong, although as Mark suggests, there could well be the dead hand of marketing at work :-)

I've still got Canon's test printer here - the one I used for the PRO-2000 review, and it's running just fine!

If you profile the printer well, then the differences between the two will probably not jump out at you on many papers.
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Royce Howland

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2016, 11:54:53 am »

Agree with Mark. I'm still largely an Epson-based print-maker, personally and professionally, for a bunch of reasons. But I have spent a significant chunk of time with small and large format Canons prior to the current series (Pro-1000, 2000, etc.). In particular I did quite a bit of work with the big x300 and x400 Canon's, and generally liked what I saw of their output. While the new Canons have some changes in their inkset, so do the new Epsons. This has to be accounted for, in part through colour management and perhaps in part through some processing workflow tweaks to account for personal tastes that could be influenced by the new ink capabilities.

New printing technology may give you, as the print-maker, an expanded and/or shifted reproduction envelope within which to work. I.e. the range of tones and colours is not identical from one printer line to the next. But the way your prints look is not determined by the printer unless you're just running on full automatic. Anybody buying a large format printer I would suggest should not just run everything on full auto, unless they don't care about really getting the full quality of results their printer is capable of. :) And by quality I don't just mean technical qualities like Dmax, colour gamut, etc. but quality of expressing your imagery according to your vision. In the end, how your prints look is mostly up to you, not the printer.

If demo Canon prints look too saturated, it's likely because as Mark suggests this tends to play well for marketing purposes. The images were made to look that way, either deliberately in post-processing of the digital files, or through the printing controls that were used to produce them. Either way, you would have the complete ability not to make prints that way if you prefer subtlety and nuance instead.

Based on the vendor print drivers (or RIP, if you're using one) and the colour profiles involved, there may be some differences in output. This is how it's always been, there's nothing different about it with the new Canons or the new Epsons. It just means that either you have to take more control over the colour management pipeline to normalize the print rendering if you don't like how it looks "out of the box"; or you have to tweak your print processing workflow a bit more to compensate for how your images are rendered if you choose not to fully control the colour management angle.

All printers give us some challenges, some the same and some different. Some by design (e.g. Canon replaceable heads that have to be budgeted for as an on-going cost of operation; or ink-wasting Epson clogs which also have to be budgeted for) and some by accident (e.g. the flaws with the Epson x900 heads that have triggered many unplanned, expensive head replacements). But for the most part, whether you can produce pleasing prints is not a challenge of one printer over another. It's rather a challenge of how you use the printer.

I'm hoping to get my first detailed, hands-on look at the new Canon LFP's within the next couple of weeks. I'm always skeptical of vendor claims until they're proved in the market, but I do expect to be impressed by what I see. It might not change my continued reliance on Epson because of other print ecosystem matters that favour continuing with Epson. But I have no doubt I could produce great prints with the new Canons in short order if I had one to use. I'm also sure I could produce over-saturated marketing pieces with any printer, if I needed to do that. :)

keithcooper

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Differences and choices
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2016, 01:42:42 pm »

One thing I'd add, having had both the P7000 and PRO-2000 here for a while this year, is that a new printer with a 'new' ink set is the ideal time to review your preconceptions and biases about what papers work 'best' for your print work.

I get a lot of questions along the lines of "I use paper XYZ - how well does it work with printer ABC"

It's a time to experiment and treat any paper reviews (my own included) with a hefty pinch of salt and form some (new) opinions of your own (the numbers may be interesting to know, but not something I'd ever use to 'rank' stuff).

With either printer, the limitations are more likely to be user related ;-)
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Czornyj

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2016, 01:46:46 pm »

The new LUCIA PRO inkset with Chroma Optimizer can give a vivid cibachrome-like look to the printed images with super dense "OLED" blacks, that is impossible to achieve with any other waterbased pigment printer. Anyway it can also reproduce moderate colors, the stock profiles are decent, and the Chroma Optimizer can also be switched off.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2016, 04:18:54 pm »

and the Chroma Optimizer can also be switched off.

How do you do that? According to the manual, pages 472 and 531 there are two choices: Auto and Overall. No mention of "OFF", unless I missed something. Nor could I find it in the driver settings when I was hoping to do that for some research.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Czornyj

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2016, 04:43:14 pm »

How do you do that? According to the manual, pages 472 and 531 there are two choices: Auto and Overall. No mention of "OFF", unless I missed something. Nor could I find it in the driver settings when I was hoping to do that for some research.

In "Auto" mode you can switch off CO completely by choosing Standard print quality, or "Special 1-5" and "Heavyweight/Lightweight Photo Paper with CO off" as media type.
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André Denis

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2016, 04:45:00 pm »

Nope...  definitely something they are doing wrong, although as Mark suggests, there could well be the dead hand of marketing at work :-)

I've still got Canon's test printer here - the one I used for the PRO-2000 review, and it's running just fine!

If you profile the printer well, then the differences between the two will probably not jump out at you on many papers.

Keith, Mark & all,

Thank you for your feedback.  Reassuring to know that the pro-2000 is capable of nuance.
I was a bit taken a back by the demo prints and disappointed.  I know 'blocked shadows' but had never seen before 'blocked by color!' :-)

Regards
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2016, 04:50:02 pm »

In "Auto" mode you can switch off CO completely by choosing Standard print quality, or "Special 1-5" and "Heavyweight/Lightweight Photo Paper with CO off" as media type.

Wow - nice catch. That's deeply buried enough - not even in the manual! Will have to look into it next week. Thanks.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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keithcooper

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2016, 05:21:32 pm »

Wow - nice catch. That's deeply buried enough - not even in the manual! Will have to look into it next week. Thanks.
It's mentioned in my PRO-2000 review ... OK, it's a rather long article, and I can see how it could be missed ;-)

About 3/4 of the way through, in the section about Chroma Optimiser.
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/printer/review_canon_pro-2000.html

"Actually with the PRO-2000 I noticed that there were media types listed with the CO turned off, for some photo papers.
If you're wondering why you'd do this, consider trying to match the look of a print made on an iPF6450 (with no CO ink) on a particular paper.
I made a series of prints with different CO settings, using a gloss baryta style paper - Innova IFA-58
Just to be sure, I made custom media types for the paper, based on 'CO used' and 'CO off' base types."

Note that the media type needs to be one with a CO=off option. Just setting quality to standard is not generally enough.
The special 1-5 settings are (iirc) for papers that don't need CO (matt papers for example)
If you use the MCT, you will find some media types for papers that would normally have CO active, specifically created with CO off.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2016, 05:43:47 pm »

It's mentioned in my PRO-2000 review ... OK, it's a rather long article, and I can see how it could be missed ;-)

.................

Or not missed and not remembered!  :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Czornyj

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2016, 02:29:59 am »

Note that the media type needs to be one with a CO=off option. Just setting quality to standard is not generally enough.
The special 1-5 settings are (iirc) for papers that don't need CO (matt papers for example)
If you use the MCT, you will find some media types for papers that would normally have CO active, specifically created with CO off.

Setting standard quality is enough to get rid of CO, and special 1-5 settings are using PBK - so they're for glossy/pearl/satin etc. papers just like HW/LW Paper with CO off. Settings special 6-10 are for matt papers and use MBK ink. Quality setting controls the amount of CO in general.

You can also change CO curve in High/Highest quality with CO Auto by choosing Lustre Pro/Platinum Pro (CO is applied from lights to blacks) or Semi-glossy/glossy paper (CO is applied from darks to blacks).
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keithcooper

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2016, 03:31:51 am »

Setting standard quality is enough to get rid of CO, and special 1-5 settings are using PBK - so they're for glossy/pearl/satin etc. papers just like HW/LW Paper with CO off. Settings special 6-10 are for matt papers and use MBK ink. Quality setting controls the amount of CO in general.

You can also change CO curve in High/Highest quality with CO Auto by choosing Lustre Pro/Platinum Pro (CO is applied from lights to blacks) or Semi-glossy/glossy paper (CO is applied from darks to blacks).

Thanks for the details and clarifying this - I asked Canon about this a while ago, but at the time the info wasn't around. Do you have a reference for this, or is it from your own testing?

I'm away for a bit, but the printer is still here, so if I get a chance when I'm back, I'll do some more testing and add it to the review (I still need to add the bit about how they get it out of the house)

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Abdo

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2016, 07:55:26 am »

This week I did a test print on  Pro1000 Canon Brazil.

In practice it uses the same system as the 2000 and 4000.

What I noticed was a marked loss in the green and loss of detail compared with a print in 8400.

As the heads change, I think that may be it.

But I did not like the Pro1000 resulted

Brazil does not have 2000 and 4000 for sale.

Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2016, 10:13:55 am »

What I noticed was a marked loss in the green (...) compared with a print in 8400.
Yes Abdo, the maximum saturation of the green midtones is reduced on the new inkset, but other colors have improved a bit, so the overall gamut volume is almost the same. Who you think provided the gamut plots to Canon Brazil? ;)
There are also some improvements on the Dmax, so, in terms of gamut there are good and bad news.

Quote
(...)and loss of detail compared with a print in 8400.
That is not the general oppinion. Actually quite the opposite. Although the resolution is the same, the dithering has improved and everyone who tested it thoroughly agrees. What you saw was probably caused by user/process error.   

Quote
Brazil does not have 2000 and 4000 for sale.
Not just yet, but they are coming (literally).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2016, 10:29:02 am »


What I noticed was a marked loss in the green and loss of detail compared with a print in 8400.



I comment on both of these items in my review of the Pro-1000 on this website. I did not compare with an 8400, but the gamut of green - in particular bright yellowish-green -  is at least competitive with an Epson P800, though not with an Epson 4900. As for sharpness/resolution of the prints, it's fine. I've done visual comparisons using a 7x aspherical magnifier, had some peers do likewise and we found the Pro-1000 stands up very well.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Abdo

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Re: Canon Pro-2000 color rendering, too saturated?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2016, 12:14:37 pm »

Geraldo,

The test I did was simple.

I made a print using my 8400 with Canson profile (Rag 310).

I did not want to use my profile, it could not make the profile of the Pro-1000.

Why I chose to use the two profiles of Canson.

The same file and the same computer, using exactly the same settings and also A3 size.

I and the staff of Canon, felt the difference that the 8400 does better.

I may have made a mistake.

But this time I really want to test is the 4000, which is what interests me.

I found very slow printer and some FW problems yet.

I gave up having a smaller printer, as did all the accounts and ends up being very expensive to keep doing formatted.

Unlike the accounts that I is R$ 1.00 for A4 (using roll) and R$ 2.00 (using a a3 to make a 20x30)

With Brazil the price is something like making prints 3000 to pay ...

If I have been confused by my English speak face about it.

Abs.

Abdo
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