Opinions of Z5200 and/or Z5400

[Mark Lindquist]

I'll bet if you go back and do searches for HP Z posts on the web you'll find most of them are by Ernst and me, and recently Mark. I've never seen a post by anyone in authority. I found out about the printer from Ernst right before I went to NY to see one.

 But I know those Barcelona guys are smart and sincere because we met them.

I'm surprised you would say that John (that I have been only posting recently).  Michael Reichmann did a video review and showed setting up the Z3100 when it first came out. 

Michael Reichmann Installing the HP Z3100 printer 2007

I immediately bought a Z3100 44" and hardly touched our other printers - particularly the epsons and a Canon.  I posted quite a bit back then. When the belt broke I had a hissy: Broken Belt Rant 2013, but most of my posts before then were about how to improve the printer or how to do something or profile one paper one way over another, mostly driving patient Ernst crazy over the years :-).  And Neil Snape in Paris who was very active back then helped a great deal.  If you go back and search, you'll see I was there, right from the beginning with the Z3100.

2007 modifying the Z3100 Printer

A 2007 Post example

A 2010 post for example

You're right, the Barcelona folks are brilliant, friendly and geniuses. I was very impressed with our guest who came to visit.  He took back about 20-25 prints, so apparently he was impressed with me as well.
And man they work.  We spent the whole day working non-stop.  I have never seen anyone take such copious notes and keep the conversation going simultaneously.

For John Nollendorf:  Yes, they are definitely alive and well, the team in Barcelona.  It's a big deal and they are working on a lot of things, but have not been doing anything with the Z's for a long time because they've been involved with latex and other printers.  They have not forgotten about us.
I can't say if they are doing a new Z3300 or whatever because I really don't know.
The execs play their hands really close to the vest, as they should.  They know what I would like to see and that covers most everyone's concerns here on the forum.

By the way, I just found this thread from 2007 about the very same things were still discussing now:

Will HP finally make a...

[shadowblade]

You guys are right, that borrowing from the latex technology would be interesting if not excellent, however it leaves these printers in the dust, to become obsolete in short order.  Hopefully, there will be some ways in which the Vivera inks can be used down the road.  The writing is on the wall with Vivera.  Sad to say.

I hope they don't replace the aqueous Vivera printers with latex. Those things make perfectly good signage, but terrible photos, and are outlasted in the longevity stakes by solvent and UV.

[Ernst Dinkla]

By the way, I just found this thread from 2007 about the very same things were still discussing now:

Will HP finally make a...

Mark,

We (Johns and me) used to read and write in the Epson Wide Format mailing list at Yahoo for a very long time. When the HP Zs and the Canon iPFs appeared on the market we continued the discussions there till it became annoying for the moderator and some list members there. There was no support to change that list to one that covered more brands so a new list was created that did that, more or less the one I still moderate. At the same time LuLa became more important for wide format inkjet users.  I think our perspective who wrote about the HP Zs at that time may be distorted by the different fora we used then.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Ernst Dinkla]

I hope they don't replace the aqueous Vivera printers with latex. Those things make perfectly good signage, but terrible photos, and are outlasted in the longevity stakes by solvent and UV.

Not my suggestion either, I have seen the image quality differences. I wrote "Maybe HP could improve the scratch resistance more by borrowing something of its Latex ink technology. If it does not sacrifice gloss, gamut and longevity in that modification." The latest Canon inks seem to have an advantage over the Epson and HP inks on that aspect. All are dispersions, one way or the other, maybe an ink medium can be found that improves the scratch resistance.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[shadowblade]

Not my suggestion either, I have seen the image quality differences. I wrote "Maybe HP could improve the scratch resistance more by borrowing something of its Latex ink technology. If it does not sacrifice gloss, gamut and longevity in that modification." The latest Canon inks seem to have an advantage over the Epson and HP inks on that aspect. All are dispersions, one way or the other, maybe an ink medium can be found that improves the scratch resistance.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Look at HP inks under an electron microscope and you'll see that most of the pigment particles are significantly larger than Canon and Epson ink particles. This probably accounts for a lot of their longevity (after all, many of the pigments they use are chemically identical). Maybe it also accounts for HP inks' greater susceptibility to scratching - I'd imagine it would be easier to move larger particles that stick out further from the underlying surface and aren't as strongly bound down.

Perhaps the answer to scratch resistance doesn't lie in the inks themselves, but in altering the gloss optimiser that overprints everything. Use the gloss optimiser to lay down a hard-wearing surface to physically protect the print, in addition to equalising the gloss. Also, take the gloss optimiser out of the 12th ink slot and put it on its own separate rail to be laid down on top of the printed inks. It covers the entire surface of the print and gets used up faster than anything else, so it deserves its own huge tank; this is probably the easiest way to do it. It doesn't need a fine, high-resolution head capable of 4pL droplets either - it's just laying down an even layer of clear stuff, so a head that's fast, cheap and maintenance free would probably do better. And use that 12th ink slot for something else - say, a blue or violet, for extended colour gamut.

[deanwork]

 If I had an electron microscope I'd take a look., maybe. The original Epson "Archival" CF inkset also had larger particles and that inkset was rated the same as the just released Epson set. They were also encapsulated with a polymer resin, but a lot duller than the HP inks. They didn't scratch as easily as the Vivera set .The HP gloss prints are the most vulnerable, due to the tender gloss enhancer, but the matt prints are vulnerable too. I never worried about it because I always coat both gloss fiber and the matte prints with the Hahnemuhle spray. For me it was always a small price to pay for doubling the light fastness.

[kers]

I agree the hahnemüle spray does a good job.
But it is a bit clumsy for large prints.

I really like the deep blacks when printing BW on matte hahnemühle 308 paper, but  find that those the most vulnerable parts of all.

[Mark Lindquist]

Epson inks on canvas seem bullet proof to scratching.That is one thing I miss now that our Epson printers are gone. I'm with John, that a few coats of protective spray is a small pprprice to pay for the quality.
I've been advocation a spray protective coating right in the printer for a long time.  Discussed it during HP's visit, and there seemed to be interest, but I rather doubt it.

Tougher inks have already been developed that already test better.  Vivera is awesome, but keeping an open mind, it will be interesting to see what the future brings.

It's very difficult to top the 12 inks Vivera ionkinkset however.  If they move on and burn bridges, that could be difficult to get back.  What we are able to do with the Z's after so many years working with them is very special.  I did. Bring up the point that this machine has become iconic to a lot of people.
Eventually, they will be overrun but I really wonder what inks could be used to keep them going for another 10-15 years?  The parts for repair are still plentiful, and a lot is off the shelf, so they could easily last another 10 years to those of us to whom it matters.  Printheads and ink. The thought occurs to me to begin hoarding printheads.  Just how to store them however....

[Mark Lindquist]

Mark,

We (Johns and me) used to read and write in the Epson Wide Format mailing list at Yahoo for a very long time. When the HP Zs and the Canon iPFs appeared on the market we continued the discussions there till it became annoying for the moderator and some list members there. There was no support to change that list to one that covered more brands so a new list was created that did that, more or less the one I still moderate. At the same time LuLa became more important for wide format inkjet users.  I think our perspective who wrote about the HP Zs at that time may be distorted by the different fora we used then.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Thanks Ernst, Got it.  - Mark

[Damir]

Epson inks on canvas seem bullet proof to scratching.That is one thing I miss now that our Epson printers are gone.

Just few days ago I had a potential customer who wanted to order canvas print, but did not like protective coating. I had some old uncoated canvas prints that was just tests for another order. To show how canvas prints are sensitive I spray paper towel with windows cleaner and rub the print. I felt like fool when nothing happened. I moist paper towel once again and rub harder - again nothing?! Not even a hint of ink on paper towel! Print just looks wet and shiny. I really felt like an idiot. Canvas was from HP - I am not sure which one, probably Collector Satin - printer was Z 3100!!

[deanwork]

I know Mark I think about that a lot, especially the Red ( which you so very kindly sent me several of for the 3100 ) and the red-black heads. I need to do that soon.

People think gelatin silver prints and platinum and salt print are exotic artifacts of photography, but really what you and Ernst and I did with the Z and Vivera are going to be seen much more that way, and they will last longer than silver prints if the right papers are used.

There is absolutely no reason for them to dump that inkset with the chromatic red. It is a historic achievement, really the biggest in color photography. When I was in graduate school my colleagues' prints shifted in a few years. Everone of their bodies of word are gone now, in the ground.

And, like we said most people don't even know about or understand that Hp achievement. I know big art galleries don't, they often  ask me when I sell them a print, " is that different from a type C print, and should I call it archival ". I'm serious. The technology is more sophisticated than the art world.

john



 The parts for repair are still plentiful, and a lot is off the shelf, so they could easily last another 10 years to those of us to whom it matters.  Printheads and ink. The thought occurs to me to begin hoarding printheads.  Just how to store them however....
[/quote]

[Mark Lindquist]

I'm serious. The technology is more sophisticated than the art world.

john

You said a mouthful there John.  Ultimately, the art world hinges on the secondary market and the auction houses.  That's where the rubber meets the road.  Art historians literally are the arbiters of taste, not the gallerists.  Once an artwork establishes itself in the auction with a significant price history begins to take over.  There is an obfuscation of the digital print because of so much schlock out there.  What sells in the auction houses is not digital, so film and prints made by archaic methods continue to dominate world markets.  There are a few exceptions however, although those "artists" damage perceptions in my view,  Not naming names because I don't want to start an "art war".

Art historians view digital prints with suspicion, and an "everything is Gicle" eye.  The technology is misunderstood because for the most part the art gets in the way.  Additionally there is the stigma of the "master", in the cases of the modern masters and we all know who they are.  I have no doubt that you or I or Ernst could take any film print done by any so-called master, and make it utterly sing, so improved is the technology at this point.  But that is not the mission of the art historian,  Theirs is to document what technology was used at the time of significant and major breakthroughs in art and art history of the time.
In the end, there will be art historians who will have a greater understanding of digital technology and there will be plenty of evidence of longevity of prints and those that do make it, ie are still among the living will no doubt be seen as revolutionary in hindsight, particularly in comparison to their counterparts.

What HP has accomplished with their Vivera Inks and their delivery systems will play a significant role in historical documentation.  That is one point I tried to hammer home; there is a significant achievement that has empowered many artists with a technology that is vastly evolved over what has become the mainstay of galleries and auction houses.  Once the floodgates open, there will be a renaissance of sorts and the dark ages will be a thing of the past (not that there is anything wrong with it).
Ultimately we're talking about image longevity and stability.  Chances are it will occur to many that in order to protect the film iconography that this realm of master comprises,that digital prints will be the ultimate answer for any sort of archival surety, certainly the only reliable solution when it comes to objects with museum heft.

I feel I understand it and I have tried to explain this to HP and anyone else who will listen but skepticism lingers even in the face of proof.  That's not my problem however, it is theirs, and ultimately it will become burdensome in the not too distant future. 

By the way, I don't mean to exclude Canon or Epson from this discussion, it's just that I'm sticking with the horse I have chosen and have the most faith in regarding longevity and archivalness.

I'm working at making as many of my most significant and important prints as I can, now, knowing that an end is near, for what might possibly be called the golden age of digital printing.  If HP pulls out by not expanding on the potential of their fine art printing products, it will indeed be the end of an era for many.

In that regard, considering the historicity that is at stake, that would be a tragedy, a significant loss ultimately, for the art world and many photographers and printers who have invested heavily in their technology and vision.  The thought that this one series of printers in the face of all the rest that HP produces, could ultimately assure their place in history, due to simple longevity, is critical for them to understand if they are to move forward in this arena as they have in the past with the one brief yet most significant achievement via the Barcelona team.

Mark

[deanwork]

Amen Mark.

And I have the greatest respect for the Barcelona team within the history of color photography. And I know Ernst does too.  I think they should be regarded up there with the Machintosh team. Maybe someday they will.

My feeling is that it is very important for us to have three major players within this technological endeavor -  Epson, Canon, and HP. And that is remarkable in itself in a world of Google and Amazon hegemony.

How you have time to advise, think about these things, and function as a world class wood sculptor I'll never know. But thanks for all you shared with HP.