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Author Topic: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?  (Read 11295 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2016, 07:17:25 pm »

With comments offered here, I take it that the ambient reading on the I1 Display Pro merely checks the environment to make sure that it's within proper bounds, versus collecting data as input to the profile.  That's been my thinking all along, so I kind of ignore that function.
Depends on the software but I think the X-rite software simply informs you if the ambient light falls without ISO spec (suggestions). And yes, too bright is a problem, too dim, none.
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Dale Villeponteaux

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2016, 01:55:25 am »

In a too dark room, the print will look too dark.  ;D
This isn't new and if we forgo the thousands of years people have been viewing artwork and just examine people viewing photography, seems this issue came about recently. Due to the intermediary device we now use to edit our images: the display. I don't think anyone here (perhaps besides Frans who's ideas I can't fathom) would disagree that if you view a well produced print that doesn't look too dark when properly illuminated next to a very bright display, it appears darker. Is that print too dark? No. Take it into a large room illuminated by a 2 watt LED nightlight, is it too dark? It certainly appears that way.


The discussion was about editing images in a (too) bright room. Again, aside from Frans, the audience members here I recognize understand that ambient light can be too high. Frans might suggest hoods for displays are to protect the electronics from ObamaCare but I believe the others here know that light striking a display affects our perception of what we are viewing. There's also the ISO spec's already outlined here (see the text by Karl Koch).


Now we come to this idea from Frans that the room can be too dim/dark and the results are, our prints will be too dark. Dale, don't believe that without some proof of concept.


Any ambient light striking the display can affect our perception of black, especially when soft proofing where we recognize the black hole the display shows us when it's not simulating the output is again affecting our perception. Too bright? Not good. Too dim? No issue based on my conversations on this concept with Karl Lang (a guy who knows a few things about displays, creator of the Radius PressView and Sony Artisan), plus just understanding a simple fact about light and perception!

I didn't express myself clearly. I meant to suggest editing an image in a "too-dark" room, editing the same image in an "adequately-lighted room" and then examining them side-by-side in a well-lighted room to see if there is a discernible difference.

Regards,
Dale
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digitaldog

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2016, 01:04:39 pm »

I didn't express myself clearly. I meant to suggest editing an image in a "too-dark" room, editing the same image in an "adequately-lighted room" and then examining them side-by-side in a well-lighted room to see if there is a discernible difference.
Go for it; Frans certainly hasn't. Nor defined what a 'too dark' room means in any degree of specifics. Based on two color scientists and the ISO, probably start at an ambient light lower than 32 lux. Which is pretty dim (but too dark?).
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2016, 04:53:46 pm »

I've been wanting to participate in my own thread, but I had to go to a different forum to find the Short form of HyperText Transfer Protocol (----):."  (Jeepers!)

Apologies for that nuisance, I increased the level of the anti-spam functions temporarily since we were suffering from that scourge at the time

GWGill

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2016, 08:15:53 pm »

I didn't express myself clearly. I meant to suggest editing an image in a "too-dark" room, editing the same image in an "adequately-lighted room" and then examining them side-by-side in a well-lighted room to see if there is a discernible difference.
There's certainly color science to back up that concern. It's well accepted in setting up video viewing environments that the gamma of the display should be increased as the viewing environment gets darker. What this is actually doing is applying a viewing conditions compensation due to the difference between the video encoding gamma (about 2.2) used for material captured in bright environments and the display gamma (somewhere between 2.2 for bright environments, 2.3 for dim, and 2.4 or even more for very dark environments). Poynton covers this in some detail.

The converse of course, is if the display is an input device due to it's being used to judge image edits, and in this situation the viewing environment difference between the expected image encoding and the actual display viewing environment could cause a shift. It depends a lot on how the display is setup though. If the display calibration & profiling ignores the viewing environment - for instance if the display was assumed to be pure sRGB response and the viewing environment is actually darker than the one that sRGB assumes - then adjusting the images to be too dark would be a danger. If the profiling was to take the viewing environment into account though, then this danger can be avoided.
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Rainer SLP

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2016, 03:24:57 pm »

Hi,

Very interesting reading as well as this one too http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=113210.0, but for a normal mortal like me and we  all being visual persons (photography), I think for a better understanding some sample images of well set up working rooms would enlighten us normal mortals much more then that huge amount of written information under which we, well at least me , is difficult to imagine how a well set up working room should look like ...

How about this https://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/calibrating_digital_darkroom.pdf

Thanks for this topic and still learning
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2016, 06:51:47 pm »

...I think for a better understanding some sample images of well set up working rooms would enlighten us normal mortals much more then that huge amount of written information under which we, well at least me , is difficult to imagine how a well set up working room should look like ...
If you are a LuLa Member, I suggest looking at the video in Camera to Print & Screen, "Your Work Environment" which includes a look at Jeff Schewe's work room.

Rainer SLP

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2016, 07:14:39 pm »

If you are a LuLa Member, I suggest looking at the video in Camera to Print & Screen, "Your Work Environment" which includes a look at Jeff Schewe's work room.

Thanks a lot Chris. Will watch it.

added when finished watching.

Very enlightening the way he setup his workroom. Have to analyze mine and change if possible. I took some images of my workplace which looks as following as well as took some screenshots after calibrating my monitor and measuring ambient light which I guess is not very adequate ¿? but on the other side I made some prints in a print shop and when coming home and comparing them with my monitor I had nothing to criticize about them. What I saw on the monitor I see it on the prints.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 07:44:17 pm by Rainer SLP »
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Rainer SLP

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2016, 07:45:03 pm »

and attached a screen shot of the calibration result
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digitaldog

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2016, 09:39:07 pm »

How about this https://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/calibrating_digital_darkroom.pdf
The same color scientist, (Karl Lang) I mentioned below who writes:
With the light output levels of current display technology, an ambient light level of 4 lux is an optimal compromise. While a lower light level would provide better results, it’s impractical. You need to be able to walk around your environment. Above 16 lux, the room ambient will have a very significant effect on the dynamic range of the display.

As to the point about lower light levels provide better results (which Frans dismisses), I also pointed out the impracticability to some degree if you can't find a way to turn on the lights when not editing: The ONLY downside is possibly bumping into something, otherwise, the lack of ambient light means none is striking the display. Which is good!
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2016, 02:27:41 am »

The same color scientist, (Karl Lang) I mentioned below who writes:
With the light output levels of current display technology, an ambient light level of 4 lux is an optimal compromise. While a lower light level would provide better results, it’s impractical. You need to be able to walk around your environment. Above 16 lux, the room ambient will have a very significant effect on the dynamic range of the display.

As to the point about lower light levels provide better results (which Frans dismisses), I also pointed out the impracticability to some degree if you can't find a way to turn on the lights when not editing: The ONLY downside is possibly bumping into something, otherwise, the lack of ambient light means none is striking the display. Which is good!
I suggest you put your responses in the appropriate threads: responses to bright room issues in the bright room thread and those to dark room issues in the dark room thread.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Color Managing Monitor in Bright Room?
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2016, 09:31:37 am »

Time to move on. Topic locked
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