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Author Topic: How far do I need to go?  (Read 4081 times)

N80

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How far do I need to go?
« on: August 23, 2016, 12:22:24 pm »

I have a basic question about color management. I'm just not sure how far I need to go in regard to hardware and software.

I'll explain my basic situation first. Amateur photographer. Do my own printing on an Epson R2400 using their K3 ink set. 13x19 max print size. Almost entirely B&W. I rarely enter contests. Will probably never have my work in a gallery. Hang them in my own home or keep in a portfolio. May rarely send out for larger prints. New iMac 27". No hardware calibration as old (cheapo) Huey does not work on it. Will likely use only a few different papers; Epson premium glossy, Ilford baryta. No matte or watercolor papers. Camera is D750 with good glass.

I am considering getting QTR and printing with the Cone expanded black inkset in the future.

So my question is this: can I get by with just monitor calibration? I do not intend to make camera ICC profiles and I will likely just use paper ICC profiles from Epson and Ilford. So I'm leaning toward the ColorMunki Display unit. I'm just not sure that I need the ColorMunki Design unit since I won't need to make printer/paper profiles.....unless I need that capability for QTR. If there are free or cheap QTR printer/paper profiles then surely there would be no need at all for me to make them myself???

Any help appreciated, keeping in mind that I'm on a low budget and printing for my own enjoyment.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 02:00:37 pm by N80 »
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George

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Jeff-Grant

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2016, 06:55:52 pm »

QTR comes with some curves. There aren't a lot for the R2400 K3 using gloss. I would try it on your papers with the supplied curves. You may just be happy with it. Most of the Ilford papers are very close.

After that, it's all uphill. You really need be able to scan patch sets to build the curves. You may be able to get the from some kind should on the QTR Yahoo group. My advice would be to just try it as is.

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Lundberg02

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 11:55:41 pm »

the new iMacs are capable of 10 bit. I don't know how that impacts B&W but you should look into it.. The i1Display Pro is a much better profiler than Color Munki.
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N80

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 12:16:26 pm »

Thanks guys. I probably would not use QTR just to print with Epson's K3 ink set. The Cone K7 ink set comes with a wide range of curves from Jon Cone that are designed to work with QTR so I'd probably be able to find a paper combo that I liked which means that I still probably would not need a device for printer profiling. However, I just priced the Cone K7 ink set and it is like $380, plus you have to buy empty cartridges and a device to reset some sort of chip. I don't print enough and my images probably can't justify that sort of expense.

So I think it just comes down to monitor profiling for me and using the basic Epson K3 ink set.

As for the ColorMunki Display verses the i1Display Pro, the X-Rite website comparison pretty much says that the main difference is how long calibration takes and more options in the software. They seem to indicate that the quality of the hardware calibration is pretty much the same between the two. Speed is not an issue I'd pay extra for and I probably do not need the extra options in the 'advanced' mode so I'm currently leaning toward the ColorMunki. Would be interested in knowing any additional advantages of the i1Display Pro.
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digitaldog

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 01:01:34 pm »

As for the ColorMunki Display verses the i1Display Pro, the X-Rite website comparison pretty much says that the main difference is how long calibration takes and more options in the software.
Yes and the big differences are in software (the Munki version is crippled). Worse, no option to upgrade to better software from X-rite like you'll find with the i1Display-Pro. 
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N80

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 03:08:58 pm »

Thanks. I will go with the i1Display Pro. It is a little more expensive but not by a lot. That way I also won't have to buy a technical device called "munki" either.  :)

I don't really think I'm going to need to profile my printer but for that capability it would cost another $200 minimum. I suppose if I ever get to that point I could sell the i1Display.
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George

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unesco

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2016, 07:26:15 pm »

(...)
So I think it just comes down to monitor profiling for me and using the basic Epson K3 ink set.
(...)
you can try to use QTR with K3 inkset as well - it gives much better results than Epson driver
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2016, 07:37:04 pm »

QTR and K3 can produce very good prints, there is no doubt about that. K7 is not for the faint hearted, and swapping inks between colour and Cone K7 on an R2400 is a recipe for a disaster. Old printers do not take kindly to refillable carts often.

I think that QTR is well worth the effort, particularly given your criteria. Here's a link to my story. It contains many hard learnt lessons. http://www.jeff-grant.com/the-path-to-piezography
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N80

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 09:09:30 am »

unesco and Jeff, thanks for the replies. QTR is cheap and if it can provide better results than the Epson driver or ABW then I will certainly give it a try. I will have to try to find some pre-made curves since I do not and probably will not have that capability any time soon. Someone above suggested that there may not be much available for glossy or baryta type paper. This could be a problem. I'm not fond of matte or watercolor type paper for the types of images I'll be printing. I'll do some searching and see what kind of curves I can find.

Jeff, given the cost and your experiences with Piezography I am unlikely to go that route any time in the near future. I trust it is worth it for getting that perfect print but it is just out of reach for me in terms of time, effort and expense. One day I may apply for a grant through our local arts council to do some local documentary work and I might be able to get a new printer and take the Piezography plunge but even that possibility is remote at best.

Alternatively I suppose I could find a lab to do Piezography prints for me. I'd still have to learn the full process I suppose.

In any case, my current goals are to get the i1Display Pro and calibrate monitor, get QTR and experiment with it and the K3 ink set, spend some more time in Capture One to explore its print capabilities vs PS.
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2016, 07:51:41 pm »

That sounds like a plan. I don't know how well the new iMacs calibrate these days. I would do a little investigation before I spent any money on it. I use an Eizo CG monitor so have not kept up with Mac screens. They were horrible at one stage, particularly with consistency across the screen.

With QTR, there is an Ilford curve which would be a good starting point. I am setting up a new 3880 at the moment and will use it for QTR at times. I'm happy to print some stuff for you if you wish to see samples of QTR alone and with Piezography inks. The differences between Piezography and QTR are not chalk and cheese, and are very much image dependent. Sometimes, you won't see it at all. It also comes down to how you process the image which makes comparisons so difficult and leads to the often heard ' I tried the Cone inks but couldn't see any difference....'

Anyway, if you want prints, just PM me.
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N80

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2016, 08:30:14 pm »

Thanks, that is a kind offer.

I can't attest to the quality consistency of the current iMac screens. X-Rite specifically claims the i1Display will calibrate the new iMac Retina 5K displays but I cannot back that up with any data or even anecdotes. I also think that X-Rite says the i1Display pro can be used to test consistency across the screen but I don't think you could do much about it if it was inconsistent.

I think I will download QTR tonight.
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digitaldog

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2016, 08:59:30 pm »

X-Rite specifically claims the i1Display will calibrate the new iMac Retina 5K displays but I cannot back that up with any data or even anecdotes. I also think that X-Rite says the i1Display pro can be used to test consistency across the screen but I don't think you could do much about it if it was inconsistent.
Yes and no.
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2016, 04:38:59 am »

I think I will download QTR tonight.

You'll also need PrintTool on the Mac.
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N80

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2016, 08:37:23 am »

Yes and no.

Please explain. I have not pulled the trigger yet and do not want to buy the wrong hardware.
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N80

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 08:39:37 am »

You'll also need PrintTool on the Mac.

Will I actually "need" it to use QTR? I see it on the QTR site but I do not see it mentioned in the QTR tutorials. That's another $40.
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Doug Gray

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 11:14:54 am »

Please explain. I have not pulled the trigger yet and do not want to buy the wrong hardware.
What DigitalDog said is that the software can check consistency across the face of the monitor but that the variation associated with that cannot be corrected.

All monitors have some variability across their surface because they are all backlit. It is impossible to achieve perfect illumination on the backlit lamps (LED or fluorescent) of a monitor and no software or profile modification can alter that.
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N80

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2016, 03:10:11 pm »

What DigitalDog said is that the software can check consistency across the face of the monitor but that the variation associated with that cannot be corrected.

All monitors have some variability across their surface because they are all backlit. It is impossible to achieve perfect illumination on the backlit lamps (LED or fluorescent) of a monitor and no software or profile modification can alter that.

Thanks. That was what I assumed.
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George

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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2016, 07:16:39 pm »

Yes and the big differences are in software (the Munki version is crippled). Worse, no option to upgrade to better software from X-rite like you'll find with the i1Display-Pro.

I wouldn’t go as far to say that the ColorMunki software is “crippled”.  It has had its problems but a new installation such as the one you are considering will not suffer from the most recent issues.  If the software Andrew is referring to as an upgrade is Argyll then I understand that it is compatible with a ColorMunki.

A ColorMunki will allow you to profile printers as well as monitors and projectors.  However, the i1Display-Pro is ‘high-end’ and a much more sophisticated device with more sophisticated software.  If you have the money I would go for the i1.
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: How far do I need to go?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2016, 10:15:23 pm »

Will I actually "need" it to use QTR? I see it on the QTR site but I do not see it mentioned in the QTR tutorials. That's another $40.

Yes. it's a long story but there's plenty of info on the QTR forum. The tutorials were written years ago before the need for PrintTool.
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