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Author Topic: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head  (Read 8691 times)

vartkes

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SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« on: August 22, 2016, 08:34:21 am »

I am aware that this subject has been up in the forum many times and I reviewed the discussion threads for situations that may be similar to what I just started experiencing without results... I also read the recent, July 2016 article by Mark Segal about Adobe screwing up the print engine and the promise from Adobe to release a fix in August 2016. Adobe released "some bug fixes" in August 2016.

Problem is shadows are printing too dark compared to soft proof seen on the monitor in a darkened lighting environment. The outcome is the same printing from Ps or Lightroom using the same profile & rendering intent. Color management is by Ps or Lr, with Epson driver color management OFF.
Test chart prints e.g. from Digital Outback Photo, Bill Atkinson etc DON'T replicate the problem.
Here are the particulars:
Application environment: Windows 10 64bit, Photoshop CC2015.5.1 (latest release from August 2016 installed) or Lightroom CC2015.6.1. Ps and Lr color space set to ProPhoto RGB.
Monitor: NEC Multisync PA241W, calibrated to 80 cd/sq.m with XRite iProfiler i1Pro2
Printer: Epson 4900 with HDR inkset. Printer nozzle test chart print show no nozzle plug issues. Ink cartridges removed and gently shaken, one by one.
Paper: Ilford Gold Fibre Silk
ICC Profile: Ilford's profile from its website AND a custom profile I built using the XRite iProfiler within the last two days to see if the factory profile was no good. This profile printed shadows even darker than the factory profile from the SAME soft-proofed file.
The image in question is attached (of course after conversion to .jpg)

Herbc

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 09:13:42 am »

at the risk of showing my ignorance, have you tried letting the printer manage colors or going to Adobe color?  Seems like I have seen this situation when I got fancy with color selection. 8)
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GrahamBy

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 09:19:51 am »

Under what lighting conditions are you viewing the print? Those shadow areas will always be difficult to see on a print unless it is rather brightly lit.
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RHPS

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 09:59:10 am »

I find the area with the trees at the top right is very dark and lacking in contrast so I wouldn't be surprised if it looked too dark in a print - even under good illumination. I would try a slight Shadow/Highlight adjustment (around 15% with 15% tone) or possibly a curves adjustment using a luminosity mask.
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vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 10:15:45 am »

at the risk of showing my ignorance, have you tried letting the printer manage colors or going to Adobe color?  Seems like I have seen this situation when I got fancy with color selection. 8)
No I have not let printer manage colurs for this image. I found doing that in the past resulted in false colors. However it is a good idea just to try on this image and see what the result is...
Vartkes

vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 10:17:54 am »

Under what lighting conditions are you viewing the print? Those shadow areas will always be difficult to see on a print unless it is rather brightly lit.
I am viewing the prints in a sunny room as well as in a calibrated light box. I agree that looking at the print as it comes out of the printer in a darkened room is not going to show the result in shadow areas.
Vartkes

howardm

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 10:18:22 am »

I very frequently find the need to bump up the darkest part of my printed images so that some detail is retained all the way down.  I know that my 3880 isn't linear at near-black so a bump such that 'black' reads approx 8 (prophoto RGB) in PS.  Most often done w/ a curves layer in the softproof layer 'group' I make.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2016, 10:18:54 am »

Problem is shadows are printing too dark compared to soft proof seen on the monitor in a darkened lighting environment.

Hi,

To make sure that the softproofing is set up as it should, have you tried printing one of the test page images (or here) that have a guaranteed correct tonality? If they print well, then the softproofing is wrong, if they also print very dark shadows (which is less likely), then the profiling needs to be checked.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 10:23:37 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Royce Howland

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2016, 10:22:13 am »

Is this print problem happening ONLY with the image in question? You indicate that test chart prints look fine... what about other images of your own. The reason I ask is that the example JPEG attached has no tagged colour space. Perhaps the tag was lost only in the creation of the example JPEG to post here, or perhaps it was lost earlier from your master file.

Obviously if you print a non-colour managed file in a colour managed workflow, you're not going to get a very desirable result. If all the other images you're printing are properly tagged but this one is not, that's likely the issue right there.

If your print master file is properly tagged, or if other properly tagged images also fail to print properly, then something else may be going on...

vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2016, 10:33:42 am »

Is this print problem happening ONLY with the image in question? You indicate that test chart prints look fine... what about other images of your own. The reason I ask is that the example JPEG attached has no tagged colour space. Perhaps the tag was lost only in the creation of the example JPEG to post here, or perhaps it was lost earlier from your master file.

Obviously if you print a non-colour managed file in a colour managed workflow, you're not going to get a very desirable result. If all the other images you're printing are properly tagged but this one is not, that's likely the issue right there.

If your print master file is properly tagged, or if other properly tagged images also fail to print properly, then something else may be going on...
The Master file is ProPhotoRGB, 16bpc. My RAW files begin in Lr as ProPhotoRGB and move to Ps, preserving embedded tags etc, may go to/return to On1 or NIK plug-ins then to print.
All printers are unable to reproduce shadows as vividly as on a high-gamut, calibrated screen. However these shadow areas, after soft-proofing, are reading R,G,B values in the range of 40! I should see good shadow tonal and hue detail at those values.
Vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2016, 10:44:51 am »

Hi,

To make sure that the softproofing is set up as it should, have you tried printing one of the test page images (or here) that have a guaranteed correct tonality? If they print well, then the softproofing is wrong, if they also print very dark shadows (which is less likely), then the profiling needs to be checked.

Cheers,
Bart
I printed couple of the test charts you reference successfully. The prints look perfect except of course a magenta tinge to the blue on the smooth transition in the 3rd vertical stripe, which is "pure" B.
Can you elaborate please what you mean, or how soft-proofing could go wrong? In Lr I use the softproofing interface inside Develop Module, utilize the ICC profile I intend to use and go forward with the adjustments I need to make. In Ps I place the image into View>Custom> selecting the ICC Profile of the target paper, selecting Black Point Comp and Simulate Paper Color. I use Perceptual or Relative Colorometric depending on the intent I am trying to adopt. Then I go forward with tonal adjustments typically using Luminosity Masks, saturations using Saturation Masks and Hue adjustments if need be using Color Balance or H/S Adjustment Layers. My Sharpening is the final step prior to go to print. I adopt this workflow fairly consistently for my prints.
Vartkes

digitaldog

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 10:52:48 am »

Problem is shadows are printing too dark compared to soft proof seen on the monitor in a darkened lighting environment.
Fix your display calibration if possible (adjust the contrast ratio) IF the disconnect is the soft proof NOT document data or how it is output. If it's the output (and you need to separate this possibility from the preview and edit), it could be any number of factors. You say you output color reference files and they print too dark. Is that indeed the case no matter how and where you view them?
I'm not concerned yet that the soft proof and print don't match. I'm convened that the color reference images are indeed blocking up detail. That leads us to which end of the workflow is the issue.
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vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 11:06:04 am »

Fix your display calibration if possible (adjust the contrast ratio) IF the disconnect is the soft proof NOT document data or how it is output. If it's the output (and you need to separate this possibility from the preview and edit), it could be any number of factors. You say you output color reference files and they print too dark. Is that indeed the case no matter how and where you view them?
I'm not concerned yet that the soft proof and print don't match. I'm convened that the color reference images are indeed blocking up detail. That leads us to which end of the workflow is the issue.
Thanks for replying Andrew.
The display is calibrated to 80 cd/sq.m. using i1Pro2 with NEC's SpectraView calibration app, which I have used now trouble free, for almost 10 years. I described my Soft-proof then print workflow from Lr and Ps above. Test chart prints are printing with GOOD tonal range and H/s except a tinge of magenta in the pure blue gradual dark to light strip.
I have been printing for years and I have not seen this phenomenon to this extent until this image. The soft proofed image is reading RGB values in the 40s in the shadow areas. Ilford has not changed its ICC profile as I see it for several years, based on the time-stamp of the download file. In any case I have been using the Ilford ICC for several years with much success. I am less satisfied with the profile I made with the iProfiler; the hues are dull and darker than the Ilford profile output.
Vartkes

digitaldog

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2016, 11:09:31 am »

The display is calibrated to 80 cd/sq.m. using i1Pro2 with NEC's SpectraView calibration app, which I have used now trouble free, for almost 10 years.
The values per se are meaningless. The only values we care about are the unique group that produces a match to the print next to the display. You should futz around with SpectraView's contrast ratio! That might be the key here. Control over black. IF (again if) the issue is the soft proof, not the output.
Is the issue the soft proof, the output or a bit of both?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2016, 12:02:12 pm »

I printed couple of the test charts you reference successfully. The prints look perfect except of course a magenta tinge to the blue on the smooth transition in the 3rd vertical stripe, which is "pure" B.

To me this seems to suggest that the printer side of things is not causing your issues.

Quote
Can you elaborate please what you mean, or how soft-proofing could go wrong? In Lr I use the softproofing interface inside Develop Module, utilize the ICC profile I intend to use and go forward with the adjustments I need to make.

Okay, not much else you can do in LR. Does the test chart on display look like the print, or is it just that the printed output shadows are not blocked up, unlike those in your problem image ?

It's strange that this particular file is causing you problems, while past images printed as expected.

I agree with Andrew, first check the display contrast. Your display setting of 80 cd/sq.m does not seem too bright, although it also depends on how dark the workplace is. The question now becomes how dark are the display blacks (e.g. 0.6 cd/sq.m), i.e. how it the display contrast? Most inkjet papers struggle to get much above 7 stops (deltaD=2.1) of Dmax-Dmin, so getting your display in that same range would get you in a comparable ballpark, assuming decent linearity of the output profile.

Then comes the comparison with output next to the display, which is always difficult due to the different media and workplace lighting conditions.

Cheers,
Bart
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vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2016, 12:14:06 pm »

The values per se are meaningless. The only values we care about are the unique group that produces a match to the print next to the display. You should futz around with SpectraView's contrast ratio! That might be the key here. Control over black. IF (again if) the issue is the soft proof, not the output.
Is the issue the soft proof, the output or a bit of both?
The softproof on screen looks exactly how I would like to reproduce in print. It is the output that is much darker in the shadows than the softproof. It is important to note that while the shadows in print are dark with GOOD detail the mid-tone and light areas are close to the softproof. The issue seems to be confined to the darkness (compared to soft-proof on screen) of the shadows with good discernible detail, only in print.
I will go back to SpectraView where i can set the contrast ratio!
Vartkes

vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2016, 12:19:43 pm »

To me this seems to suggest that the printer side of things is not causing your issues.

Okay, not much else you can do in LR. Does the test chart on display look like the print, or is it just that the printed output shadows are not blocked up, unlike those in your problem image ?

It's strange that this particular file is causing you problems, while past images printed as expected.

I agree with Andrew, first check the display contrast. Your display setting of 80 cd/sq.m does not seem too bright, although it also depends on how dark the workplace is. The question now becomes how dark are the display blacks (e.g. 0.6 cd/sq.m), i.e. how it the display contrast? Most inkjet papers struggle to get much above 7 stops (deltaD=2.1) of Dmax-Dmin, so getting your display in that same range would get you in a comparable ballpark, assuming decent linearity of the output profile.

Then comes the comparison with output next to the display, which is always difficult due to the different media and workplace lighting conditions.

Cheers,
Bart
Hello Bart, yes I do have a daylight compensated viewing stand that i can haul out and set up next to my screen, in a darker environment. Maybe that is the next step and checking into the contrast ratio... Another thought is to go back to the RAW images ( the originals are three images shot for wider DR, then I used the HDR function in Lr) and develop from the HDR .dng file.
Vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2016, 12:32:32 pm »

Another thought is to go back to the RAW images ( the originals are three images shot for wider DR, then I used the HDR function in Lr) and develop from the HDR .dng file.
No! Stick with the color reference images that are KNOWN to produce good output, then play with your own files after you fix the issue!
Here's one more such reference image:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2016, 12:33:45 pm »

The softproof on screen looks exactly how I would like to reproduce in print. It is the output that is much darker in the shadows than the softproof.
Soft proof or output is wrong. Figure which is which. That's why you need to stick with output of color reference files, who's RGB values were not polluted by editing based on an iffy display calibration.
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vartkes

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Re: SHadow areas printing too dark - topic rears its ugly head
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2016, 02:20:20 pm »

Soft proof or output is wrong. Figure which is which. That's why you need to stick with output of color reference files, who's RGB values were not polluted by editing based on an iffy display calibration.
I printed the test print image on the Ilford GFS paper using the Ilford factory ICC profile. The print looks good both in grey-scale, highlight detail in the fur of the wolf, skin tones are realistic; all good except the aforementioned magenta tinge in the blues. So the ICC profile is good enough, print of reference is good and this leaves the calibration of the monitor. I will go back there and see if I can fix the problem - contrast ratio.
thanks for all your suggestions.
Vartkes
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