Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?  (Read 5183 times)

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« on: August 18, 2016, 07:52:55 pm »

I have one of these for 21 years, it works like if it was bought just today although it has seen the hardest of use, every tripod out of the four I have, improves for stability if this is used as a head. Combined with my favorite out of my tripods (the FATIF), it makes a FUJI GX-680 able for 100% success on all multishots with either the Imacon 528c or the Sinarback 54H both used in 16x mode...

I now need a second tripod head that should be at least as sturdy as to have another camera+back combination ready for use... Is there a better alternative from the ball heads out in the market? How does the Arca C1 compares for sturdiness? What is the sturdiest head you have ever used?

Logged

DanielStone

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 664
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 03:11:47 am »

I'll give my synopsis of different heads I've used(and would happily use again)

Geared
Arca Cube - Only geared head I've ever (owned). Love it. I's my "go to" tripod head for almost everything nowadays. Use my GX680's on it regularly (with film), longest lens I have is the 300mm. Rock solid(best with mirror up, as you already know)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1029552-REG/arca_swiss_8501003_1_c1_cube_geared_head.html
Linhof 3D Micro - I have used(but not owned) this head, and it's beautifully made, and I would buy one just as easily as the Cube.

Ball Head
Acratech GP: Rated for 25#, and weighs less than 1# itself! Very sturdy, and it's "open ball" design allows for dirt/grime/etc to fall out, rather than getting trapped like most "closed ball" ballhead designs do.
http://www.acratech.net/ballheads/gp/gp

Pan-Tilt
Gitzo 1570M - Great head, large platen to mount to(great for a flatbed LF field camera, or the GX680!). Not very light, but it doesn't need to be.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/170918-REG/Gitzo_G1570M_G1570_3_Way_Head.html


Depending on your NEEDS, the options are certainly out there. I enjoy the control a geared head, such as my Cube, gives me versus a ballhead or 3-way pan-tilt head. Nothing wrong with the other two, but for exacting composition work(which most of my MF and LF film photography is, being tripod-based), the Cube is MY go-to head 95% of the time now, the ballhead is for "looser" shooting with the Pentax 67ii or the D810.

-Dan
Logged

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2016, 05:06:07 am »

For single shot work and shorter lenses that 200mm most heads are ok.
For multishot I have tested this Manfrotto geared head. It is my favorite head for normat work especially
macro, but for multishot I found it to cause too much vibrations.

So I tried the new style Manfrotto ball head with the red plastic around the ball. It was better
but still some vibrations.

The best of mine was the older Manfrotto proball. This works fine for multishot and long tele lenses,
but I am still searching for something better. It seems like weight is essential. Also the shorter and thicker the neck of the ballhed is, the less likely it is to cause vibrations.


Logged

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 05:35:21 am »

I also have a Fobe superball I bought with a camera in a combined deal some years ago.
Looks and feels very steady, is heavier and has a very short neck. I have not yet tested it because
I need some more attachment-plates.
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2016, 09:56:14 am »

I also have a Fobe superball I bought with a camera in a combined deal some years ago.
Looks and feels very steady, is heavier and has a very short neck. I have not yet tested it because
I need some more attachment-plates.

Hi,

The short and thick neck looks promising, but the ball is relatively high above the Tripod's mounting plane. I wonder how a RRS BH-55 would compare. It has a very low and large ball, and a short thick neck. But ballheads are not always the most convenient solution.

Especially for fine adjustments, a geared head works much better, especially if it doesn't add too much height above the tripod plate.

In that respect, an Arca-Swiss Cube C1 seems to have a lot going for it, except price. It adds geared movements, a low profile (approx. the same as the BH-55), and it keeps the camera+lens' center of gravity more in place (more centered) above the tripod when composing.

The tripod legs will of course need to be part of the solution and not become part of the problem, because they can help and dampen the initial vibrations, so that longer exposure times will get proportionally sharper. One may also need to change the angle that the legs make, depending on the type of vibration that the camera/lens generates, and where it originates (closing of aperture, mirror if any, shutter, and environment).

The best performing alternative should be tested in combination with the camera setup it is going to be used with, because the source of the vibration is part of the total equation.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Ken Doo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1079
    • Carmel Fine Art Printing & Reproduction
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2016, 10:33:05 am »

IF you need to make fine adjustments, the Arca Swiss Cube is outstanding. It is indeed expensive, but nicely crafted.  For a lighter weight alternative that gives both the speed of a ball head and fine adjustments, I like the KPS T5 geared ball head.  Very capable geared ball head, not inexpensive, but still only about 1/2 the price of the Cube.  See, https://luminous-landscape.com/the-kps-t5-geared-ballhead-review-and-users-report/

Ken

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2016, 01:51:22 pm »

Hi,

I don't know about the Arca Cube, but I own their D4 and love it.

I have owned the Acratech Ultimate ballhead, but I had a tendency to mix up the quick release knob and the pano knob. It may be on my shopping list but with an RRS lever type quick release.

There is a thing I miss on the D4, and that is geared pan.

Best regards
Erik




I'll give my synopsis of different heads I've used(and would happily use again)

Geared
Arca Cube - Only geared head I've ever (owned). Love it. I's my "go to" tripod head for almost everything nowadays. Use my GX680's on it regularly (with film), longest lens I have is the 300mm. Rock solid(best with mirror up, as you already know)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1029552-REG/arca_swiss_8501003_1_c1_cube_geared_head.html
Linhof 3D Micro - I have used(but not owned) this head, and it's beautifully made, and I would buy one just as easily as the Cube.

Ball Head
Acratech GP: Rated for 25#, and weighs less than 1# itself! Very sturdy, and it's "open ball" design allows for dirt/grime/etc to fall out, rather than getting trapped like most "closed ball" ballhead designs do.
http://www.acratech.net/ballheads/gp/gp

Pan-Tilt
Gitzo 1570M - Great head, large platen to mount to(great for a flatbed LF field camera, or the GX680!). Not very light, but it doesn't need to be.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/170918-REG/Gitzo_G1570M_G1570_3_Way_Head.html


Depending on your NEEDS, the options are certainly out there. I enjoy the control a geared head, such as my Cube, gives me versus a ballhead or 3-way pan-tilt head. Nothing wrong with the other two, but for exacting composition work(which most of my MF and LF film photography is, being tripod-based), the Cube is MY go-to head 95% of the time now, the ballhead is for "looser" shooting with the Pentax 67ii or the D810.

-Dan
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2016, 01:52:10 pm »

It looks to me that the requirements between common every day use for single shot captures and use for multishot captures (especially so in 16x multishot mode) differ by quite a margin. My experience with multishot, is that the more solid and the less moving parts a support device has, the sturdier it is.

Surely there is no other camera than Fuji GX-680 that would put more demand to the support base if used with a multishot back for 16x captures.... the vibration that the huge mirror of the FUJI induces between shots of the sequence, exceeds by quite a margin any other camera I have ever used and one can't lock the mirror up for as long as the sequence lasts.

I've seen support equipment that is considered to be top class, failing for multishot captures and other that is considered to be of lower level, to perform beautifully. I have to say, I've tested lots of equipment and combinations for both tripods and heads and up to now, I've find none other than the old FATIF tripod and FOBA BALLO  that can achieve 100% success on all 16X captures with the FUJI GX-680 and Sinarback 54H (or the Imacon 528c I had before) combination... One has to additionally note that the Imacon 528c has a "movement detector" included in the software (which the 54H lacks) as to ensure that the result one gets is the maximum of what one can achieve.

What I found as being really impressive some years back when I was testing different support equipment for multishot use, is that even equipment that would fail with the Fuji, but succeed with the (much more "quiet") Contax 645, it would fail if only one joint of the tripod was not tighten up to the maximum and then, even the FATIF & FOBA combination fails if a joint is forgotten to be tighten up to the maximum.

Now I'm looking to have another tripod + head combination, so that I can then have the Fuji + Sinarback 54H on one tripod and then my (converted) Sinar P2 & Hasselblad CF-39MS on an other, both ready to use... Clearly ergonomics are the least of factors that concerns me as leveling the camera faster or a few seconds later doesn't matter to me at all... It's sturdiness I care about above anything else... If I can surpass the FATIF + FOBA combination on sturdiness, I will be as happy as one can be.



Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2016, 03:04:20 pm »

It looks to me that the requirements between common every day use for single shot captures and use for multishot captures (especially so in 16x multishot mode) differ by quite a margin. My experience with multishot, is that the more solid and the less moving parts a support device has, the sturdier it is.

Surely there is no other camera than Fuji GX-680 that would put more demand to the support base if used with a multishot back for 16x captures.... the vibration that the huge mirror of the FUJI induces between shots of the sequence, exceeds by quite a margin any other camera I have ever used and one can't lock the mirror up for as long as the sequence lasts.

I've seen support equipment that is considered to be top class, failing for multishot captures and other that is considered to be of lower level, to perform beautifully. I have to say, I've tested lots of equipment and combinations for both tripods and heads and up to now, I've find none other than the old FATIF tripod and FOBA BALLO  that can achieve 100% success on all 16X captures with the FUJI GX-680 and Sinarback 54H (or the Imacon 528c I had before) combination... One has to additionally note that the Imacon 528c has a "movement detector" included in the software (which the 54H lacks) as to ensure that the result one gets is the maximum of what one can achieve.

What I found as being really impressive some years back when I was testing different support equipment for multishot use, is that even equipment that would fail with the Fuji, but succeed with the (much more "quiet") Contax 645, it would fail if only one joint of the tripod was not tighten up to the maximum and then, even the FATIF & FOBA combination fails if a joint is forgotten to be tighten up to the maximum.

Now I'm looking to have another tripod + head combination, so that I can then have the Fuji + Sinarback 54H on one tripod and then my (converted) Sinar P2 & Hasselblad CF-39MS on an other, both ready to use... Clearly ergonomics are the least of factors that concerns me as leveling the camera faster or a few seconds later doesn't matter to me at all... It's sturdiness I care about above anything else... If I can surpass the FATIF + FOBA combination on sturdiness, I will be as happy as one can be.

Hi Theodoros,

You didn't specify level shooting, so the reactions will tend towards flexibility. If you only shoot (close to) level, I'd agree that less is more. Mounting the camera directly to a tripod leveling base, or on a leveling head, would introduce the least amount of variables, yet still allow some adjust-ability.

When the camera+lens (aperture closes, mirror acceleration plus deceleration and bounce, shutter leafs closing, or shutter curtains accelerating and decelerating) generates a displacement of mass (maybe out of balance versus the tripod center axis), it will first have to overcome inertia. A heavy camera system with a lot of (added) mass will be harder to get into motion, but it will move (and will be harder to stop). That movement will then start a vibration that decays with each oscillation, but those oscillations will travel through the tripod legs up and down, and a bit sideways. Some of the multiple sources of vibration may even enforce one another if they are vibrating in phase.

The legs should therefore be positioned to resist the vibration directions (vectors) the best they can, and the leg material should absorb the energy (mostly) in its length direction, and not flex or twist. Legs with Carbon fiber walls with multiple crossed fiber layers have good damping properties, and some wooden tripods (some are used for Astronomy) also exhibit excellent properties. Fastening the leg sections will help.

You once wrote about your experiments with "Sorbothane", which should also help to avoid the vibrations being transferred between camera base or tripod clamp and tripod base. Finding the optimal version (Durometer & Shape Factor) may require some assistance from the supplier.

That still leaves the initial impulse(s) that the camera system generates. There it may help to analyze the source of the vibration in relation to the center of the tripod apex. Simply shifting the camera + lens forward or backward in the clamping position, or adding a lens support, could help to minimize the forces exerted on the tripod/head. A different lens will require re-adjusting of the setup, because the source or the balance will have shifted.

A relatively affordable instrument to assist in analyzing the vibrations, and the way they are affected/reduced by varying certain variables, is this simple logging unit. It generates a Comma Separated Value (CSV) list of acceleration data, that can easily be imported in a spreadsheet program and, if necessary, plotted. One can also just look for highest amplitudes in the text file, but that wouldn't show how fast the impulses get damped.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 07:49:57 pm by BartvanderWolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2016, 03:27:12 pm »

Hi Theodoros,

You didn't specify level shooting, so the reactions will tend towards flexibility....

Hi Bart,

Of course I did... look back in the O/P...

Other than that, I've find that there are two different ways on approaching the matter... One is the mass/storage of energy path where the system acts as a capacitor that has to be of value as to store the created energy, the other is the "fast earthing" of the energy...

The sorbothane (and stereo speaker spikes with plates - may I remind you), I still use when "earthing" of the system is limited because of the nature of the ground one has to use its equipment on (like wooden floor). The idea behind it, is that depending on the circumstances one works on, he has to either amplify "earthing" (on hard floors), or to magnify "capacity" (on softer floors)... But still, the "system" one decides on, must be able to cope with both "storage of energy" and "fast disposal of energy" as to cope with all one might be against...

P.S. It makes me very happy you remember my older posts...  :D
Logged

DanielStone

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 664
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2016, 04:08:13 pm »

Theodoros,
Have you ever looked at the Ries line of tripods and heads? While they might look somewhat 'archaic' compared to the more modern carbon fiber tripods, they provide excellent vibration resistance and a very stable platform to shoot from.

They offer both single tilt and double-tilt heads. Depending on which you go for, they both have rather large mounting too plates to mount to, compared with the rather small versions we have available to us today(think Arca Swiss)

Dan

Dan
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2016, 06:06:17 pm »

Theodoros,
Have you ever looked at the Ries line of tripods and heads? While they might look somewhat 'archaic' compared to the more modern carbon fiber tripods, they provide excellent vibration resistance and a very stable platform to shoot from.

They offer both single tilt and double-tilt heads. Depending on which you go for, they both have rather large mounting too plates to mount to, compared with the rather small versions we have available to us today(think Arca Swiss)

Dan

Dan

Actually Dan, I've never ever seen a wooden tripod live... and usually people choose heads coming from the same maker as the tripod, so I haven't ever come in touch with their heads either!  I did have a close look in their site though after your suggestion (thanks for posting) and although I love wood, I would be a bit suspicious for their capability as to withstand the whole 16x sequence of multishot captures the way a sturdy metal tripod would...

What really impressed me though, is some of their heads! Especially that A-250/2 head looks to be a superb piece of engineering... and is specified to be directly competitive to the Arca C1 for capabilities/flexibility at a third of the price!  I definetly would like to try one of these (as well as a C1 cube) on my FATIF tripod, if any of them proves to be as sturdy as the FOBA Ballo as to handle multishot captures, I would prefer to avoid buying a second ball head...

I thank you very much to attract my attention on these heads... I would have never noticed if you didn't mention them....

Anybody that has experience with them?

 
Logged

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 03:08:24 am »

https://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=details&id=350&sprache=english


I would say this one is more promising. Very heavy (11kilos) and a ver stable design.
Logged

tho_mas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1799
Re: FOBA Superball BALLO/BALLA is there a better ball head?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 06:20:18 pm »

I love wood, I would be a bit suspicious for their capability as to withstand the whole 16x sequence of multishot captures the way a sturdy metal tripod would...
regarding damping wood is the best material due to its complex irregular structure. Carbon is just a a way to make tripods more portable (light, easy to fold)... but when really only rigidity (not portability) is the main concern, wood is still the best material. You can search the web regarding wood vs. carbon ... or try it yourself. The "Planet" line 'henrikfoto' linked to is extremely rigid (as is the "uni"-Line). Personally I do have 2 wood tripods and 2 carbon tridods (a small and large one of each) ... and whenever it is possible I carry the wooden version even when shotting outside ... it makes a difference!
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up