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Author Topic: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?  (Read 4229 times)

MHMG

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 12:09:22 AM »

... I do wish HP had kept going with the development of the Z3200.

So do I, and maybe HP will step up one of these days. In the meantime, I bought an HP Z3200PS 44 inch model several months ago after many years of avoiding it due to what I thought was an uncomfortably higher price point (that price has since come down dramatically if you find the right reseller, at least in the USA), and although I don't want to sound like I'm a fanboy of any particular printer manufacturer, I must say, the Z3200PS has quickly become my favorite printer in my studio. Yes, it's got quirks, and yes, it's slower than the newer models from Canon and Epson, and yes, there's a knack to feeding cut sheet media into it, but wow, the print quality is right up there with the latest models on the market. Print longevity on good media is also at the top of the heap, and the Z3200 just sits there in a corner patiently keeping itself properly maintained in sleep mode so that there will be no surprises when you go to fire it up again after many weeks of non use.  Bottom line: the nearly 10 year old Z3200 printer technology is still incredibly competitive on initial print quality with Epson's and Canon's latest WF printer models, but then excels beyond the competition if you value print permanence as a major reason to buy a wide format pigmented inkjet printer designed to satisfy the fine art printing market.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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deanwork

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2017, 03:50:21 PM »

I totally agree with everything you just said. I bought another one a couple of months ago. It also makes great digital negs for alternative process with the software developed by Angel for them, and you can linearize the platinum prints right in the printer.

It's is a painfully slow printer though p and if someone needs a print quickly or do production work, forgetaboutit, but that is my only complaint. That was 3 grand well spent. Best dmax on matte media ever created by mankind, 1.83.

John



quote author=MHMG link=topic=112923.msg996610#msg996610 date=1503979762]
So do I, and maybe HP will step up one of these days. In the meantime, I bought an HP Z3200PS 44 inch model several months ago after many years of avoiding it due to what I thought was an uncomfortably higher price point (that price has since come down dramatically if you find the right reseller, at least in the USA), and although I don't want to sound like I'm a fanboy of any particular printer manufacturer, I must say, the Z3200PS has quickly become my favorite printer in my studio. Yes, it's got quirks, and yes, it's slower than the newer models from Canon and Epson, and yes, there's a knack to feeding cut sheet media into it, but wow, the print quality is right up there with the latest models on the market. Print longevity on good media is also at the top of the heap, and the Z3200 just sits there in a corner patiently keeping itself properly maintained in sleep mode so that there will be no surprises when you go to fire it up again after many weeks of non use.  Bottom line: the nearly 10 year old Z3200 printer technology is still incredibly competitive on initial print quality with Epson's and Canon's latest WF printer models, but then excels beyond the competition if you value print permanence as a major reason to buy a wide format pigmented inkjet printer designed to satisfy the fine art printing market.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
[/quote]
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nirpat89

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2017, 04:36:25 PM »

HP made the B9180 A3+ printer...
I have 3 of them here....only on works as it should.
I remember a review where it was called 'Built as a tank'

This is true, but it is not in the same league as the 24 and 44 inch printers. Also the cost for printing are much higher because of the small cartridges.
I would suggest a 24 inch printer with 12 inks.

So did I have one since it first came out.  It just died on me this week, leaving quite a few ink cartridges orphan.  24' is too big and too expensive for me.   If I bought one of those, I may have to go into printing business which I do not want to do...:)

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MHMG

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2017, 04:50:54 PM »

Best dmax on matte media ever created by mankind, 1.83.

John


The Dmax issue is equally fascinating in that the Z seems to deliver excellent Dmax across the board, i.e., on many classic media, both glossy and matte, plus the latest media on the market as well. In particular it matches or exceeds even Canon and Epson's latest ink sets with older paper formulations like HN photo rag or Moab Entrada (both papers having been on the market well over a decade). Both Canon and Epson are now extolling the virtues of their newest ink sets in terms of Dmax, but I'm finding that those benefits are very media dependent,i.e., tuned to some of the latest multi-coated papers but falling short on some of the classic older media. Best-in-class Dmax is not a slam dunk for the latest Canon and Epson Ink sets. For example, on my Epson P600 I have to back off the ink density to -20 using Epson's advanced media settings when printing on Moab Entrada Natural to get best Dmax. Using the normal zero setting paradoxically reduces Dmax, but there's no free lunch because color gamut volume begins to suffer, so -10 to -15 represents the final compromise. On the Pro-1000, I have to move down to "special 8" or compromise at "special 9" rather than the highest ink load special 10 media setting in order to hold a better Dmax, but again, color gamut volume begins to take a slight hit. 

Entrada Rag Natural is a personal favorite of mine for high quality, high whitepoint, OBA-free, attractively priced cotton rag fine art matte paper. The Z3200 has no issues printing on Entrada Rag Natural. Output is gorgeous, color gamut very competitive with the latest fine art matte media. Wish I could hit that same high note when trying to use this paper on my Epson and Canon printers. The output is good, but not as good as the Z3200 output.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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nirpat89

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2017, 05:54:59 PM »

HP Printer Division should merge with Canon's.  Or Canon should license Vivera inks for their smaller (less than 24") machines.  If any of them had any sense.
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MHMG

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2017, 07:33:58 PM »

HP Printer Division should merge with Canon's.  Or Canon should license Vivera inks for their smaller (less than 24") machines.  If any of them had any sense.

Well, it's not likely to happen. But that said, I also don't think HP should combine forces with anyone. My preference is for HP to reenter the fine art photography and print market on its own merits and challenge the competition to do even better. It's not just about inks. Modern media has real issues that undermine the best ink set performance.
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traderjay

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2017, 10:19:31 PM »

Considering that HP and Canon makes the the laserjet printers together, I think they can learn from each other in the inkjet field - https://www.wired.com/1994/10/canon/
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traderjay

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2017, 10:45:04 PM »

Mark - i read your earlier post on the preliminary testing of the Lucia Pro ink and my head hurts and I feel for you. Is it possible for you to select existing media types with a proven record of longevity to test the new inks on? I also have a feeling that media types with rougher or coarser finishes are less susceptible to degradation vs extreme glossy types?
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MHMG

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2017, 10:48:03 AM »

Mark - ... Is it possible for you to select existing media types with a proven record of longevity to test the new inks on? I also have a feeling that media types with rougher or coarser finishes are less susceptible to degradation vs extreme glossy types?

Yes, of course, but our ink and media campaign for 2017 is still only about 20% funded, so I'm probably not going to be able to get any more samples into test anytime soon even though Aardenburg Imaging & Archives does have the equipment capacity to run many more samples. More testing is definitely needed to eventually rank order the major aqueous pigmented ink sets on the market today in terms of good, better, best overall lightfastness. One thing for certain is that media choice really does add a lot of variability, so choosing media wisely has become increasingly more important as the overall stability of modern ink sets improve. It also means more specific tests of a wider range of media are sorely needed to give printmakers a more informed choice about what papers are best suited to their chosen ink set.

The heightened concern about the Canon Pro-11 ink set, as evidenced in this discussion, is that Canon for whatever reason to date has not yet commissioned and/or published any independents test results, let alone enough test results to answer a very basic question for endusers looking to replace older iPF x300 and x400 series printers with a newer model: namely,  "Is the new Lucia Pro-11 ink set equal to, better, or worse in overall lightfastness compared to the earlier Lucia EX set used in Canon's older iPF x300 and x400 series of WF printers?"  It's clear from the three samples I have in test now, that a larger paired comparison type of test methodology using both ink sets is going to be required to definitively answer that question.  If Canon, for example, only tested Pro luster and Pro Platinum papers using both older and newer Lucia formulations, the results might indeed lean one way or the other, but it really doesn't answer the question for printmakers using many other popular fine art media choices commonly in use today.

To broaden the question further to include competitive ink sets means even more extensive testing. I do believe that Aardenburg will eventually answer these questions over time, but it's going to be a slow process, slow enough that who knows, by that time, there may be yet more new ink sets on the market :D  As such, I'm concentrating my efforts more on identifying the "bad media apples", i.e., those that seriously impair good performance of any high stability ink set as well as the "good media" which generally allow all ink sets to turn in their best performance.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2017, 09:06:07 PM »

To think that color science created well over 10 years ago, changed only once by the addition of Chromatic Red, to this day bests the finest offerings of Canon and Epson is poor commentary indeed.
The printer itself is truly a design marvel of simplicity and efficiency only rivaled by the fact that it is a monument to quirkiness in that it's output outperforms machines meant for service bureaus.
This machine, the Z3200ps was built for individual photographers as artists, and no other printer comes close in terms of versatility.  The printer as defined for studio artist is all but relegated to small desktop printers these days, that can't begin to compete with the quality and longevity of the Z prints.
To think that a major corporation has made consistently the best machine over what amounts to 15 years, has done little to market it, and has just quietly kept making and selling is truly amazing.
Slow, yes, but for a studio artist concerned primarily with quality, who cares.
The fact remains, that given the Vivera inkset after well over a decade reigns supreme, is utterly an indictment of the sheer incompetence of the "competition".  After 15 years, and nothing to best Vivera?
Really?
I'm thinking it is best to enjoy the time in which we live where this is the case, for I fear this luxury of Vivera will come to an end eventually.  And then there will be the rest. Long live Vivera.  What an inkset.

johncustodio

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2017, 09:31:39 PM »

Best dmax on matte media ever created by mankind, 1.83.

John,
What matte media are you using on the Z3200 that you get 1.83? I had a Z3100 for 10 years that died a few months ago and am thinking about getting a Z3200.
-John



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deanwork

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2017, 03:48:48 PM »

Canson Rag Photographique and Epson "Legacy" Fiber. The Canson Edition is very close to that and Hahnemühle Photorag 308 is close behind. You need to let them dry overnight as the density increases .


Best dmax on matte media ever created by mankind, 1.83.

John,
What matte media are you using on the Z3200 that you get 1.83? I had a Z3100 for 10 years that died a few months ago and am thinking about getting a Z3200.
-John
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kevinmcdnyc

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2017, 10:20:58 AM »

I was on the Wilhelm site this morning and saw that they posted a press release from Epson on September 6th, which quotes permanence numbers for the UltraChrome HDX pigment set. Has anyone else noticed this.  It says color images tested at "approaching" 200 years and black and white over 400 years. Rather vague language, but at least it appears Wilhelm is still posting.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2017, 11:01:00 AM »

I was on the Wilhelm site this morning and saw that they posted a press release from Epson on September 6th, which quotes permanence numbers for the UltraChrome HDX pigment set. Has anyone else noticed this.  It says color images tested at "approaching" 200 years and black and white over 400 years. Rather vague language, but at least it appears Wilhelm is still posting.

I think Epson issued that press release quite some time ago. I have yet to find a complete report available on WIR backing the press release; but that site isn't really configured for making a joy of finding stuff, so maybe I missed something.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MHMG

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2017, 11:47:28 AM »

I think Epson issued that press release quite some time ago. I have yet to find a complete report available on WIR backing the press release; but that site isn't really configured for making a joy of finding stuff, so maybe I missed something.

There is indeed a newer press release entitled: "Epson SureColor P5000 Featured as Professional Photographer Magazine 2017 Hot One" It has a press release date of September 6, 2017.

In that press release, various new claims about HD(x) versus K3 longevity are made, and Henry Wilhelm is quoted.  I personally found the following statement about skin tone colors to be of great interest, especially considering the WIR test method doesn't currently include any skin tone color patches in the official WIR testing protocol. Note also that the WIR test method cannot distinguish any possible differences between the Epson HD and HDX ink sets because color blends involving the HDX orange and green inks are not included in the official WIR testing protocol. Any final WIR ratings for HD inks on various Epson media will most likely be repurposed by WIR to printer models using HDX inks like the SC P5000.

"According to Henry Wilhelm, director of research at Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc., the world’s leading independent print permanence testing laboratory, the improved light stability of the new Yellow pigment in the Epson UltraChrome HDX inks, together with the already high levels of permanence of the Magenta and Cyan pigment inks, provides much longer lasting skin tone colors. “The Epson UltraChrome HDX inks help preserve the warmth, richness and beauty of portraits and wedding photographs. Nobody looks good when the color of their skin starts to shift over time toward blue or green. Especially for portrait and wedding photographers, the greatly improved stability balance provided by the new Epson Yellow pigment ink represents a major advance in the overall permanence of their work.”

Mark S., I also concur with you that the official WIR test reports with the finalized ratings have apparently not yet been published, probably the reason why the ratings claim in the press release was vaguely worded "approaching 200 years..." I also find it amusing and a bit ironic that at this point in time, if anyone truly wants real test data and visual confirmation of Epson and WIR's claimed skin tone color stabiliy improvement then you need to go to Aardenburg Imaging & Archives not WIR.  Epson is more than welcome to cite the Aardenburg research as well ;)

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/epson-ultrachrome-hd-140-mlux-hrs/

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 03:37:54 PM by MHMG »
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deanwork

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2017, 09:10:25 PM »

I think this magazine is just riffing off of the "preliminary" data that Will put on his website what like a year and a half ago and never finished? The state of inquiry in the public photo realm now is so lazy that they get away with what Henry himself would have considered sloppy and unprofessional 10 years ago.

Another sloppy feature of his website is how he continues to label his Canson Rc media as having no optical brightening agents added at all, and gives them ratings that match or exceed premium cottton non oba media. Any clown can put them under a black light and see that is nuts. I don't know what to believe over there anymore. He's too busy traveling around giving speeches to do his tests properly. Apparently as long as Epson writes him a check they get to call the shots.




There is indeed a newer press release entitled: "Epson SureColor P5000 Featured as Professional Photographer Magazine 2017 Hot One" It has a press release date of September 6, 2017.

In that press release, various new claims about HD(x) versus K3 longevity are made, and Henry Wilhelm is quoted.  I personally found the following statement about skin tone colors to be of great interest, especially considering the WIR test method doesn't currently include any skin tone color patches in the official WIR testing protocol. Note also that the WIR test method cannot distinguish any possible differences between the Epson HD and HDX ink sets because color blends involving the HDX orange and green inks are not included in the official WIR testing protocol. Any final WIR ratings for HD inks on various Epson media will most likely be repurposed by WIR to printer models using HDX inks like the SC P5000.

"According to Henry Wilhelm, director of research at Wilhelm Imaging Research, Inc., the world’s leading independent print permanence testing laboratory, the improved light stability of the new Yellow pigment in the Epson UltraChrome HDX inks, together with the already high levels of permanence of the Magenta and Cyan pigment inks, provides much longer lasting skin tone colors. “The Epson UltraChrome HDX inks help preserve the warmth, richness and beauty of portraits and wedding photographs. Nobody looks good when the color of their skin starts to shift over time toward blue or green. Especially for portrait and wedding photographers, the greatly improved stability balance provided by the new Epson Yellow pigment ink represents a major advance in the overall permanence of their work.”

Mark S., I also concur with you that the official WIR test reports with the finalized ratings have apparently not yet been published, probably the reason why the ratings claim in the press release was vaguely worded "approaching 200 years..." I also find it amusing and a bit ironic that at this point in time, if anyone truly wants real test data and visual confirmation of Epson and WIR's claimed skin tone color stabiliy improvement then you need to go to Aardenburg Imaging & Archives not WIR.  Epson is more than welcome to cite the Aardenburg research as well ;)

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/epson-ultrachrome-hd-140-mlux-hrs/

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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MHMG

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Re: Any news about Canon's Lucia Pro inks permanece?
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2017, 10:27:31 PM »

I think this magazine is just riffing off of the "preliminary" data that Will put on his website what like a year and a half ago and never finished?


Because HD/HDX yellow is indeed more lightfast than the older K3/HDR yellow, the time it takes to reach the accredited failure point in test gets significantly longer. Pressure mounts to say something, so "preliminary" statements sometimes get published before testing comes to a final endpoint.

The Epson HD/HDX ink set is also a textbook example of a decidedly non linear fading behavior where the product starts out really strong but then begins to cave at a later stage in test as the testing gets to higher exposure doses. It is this non linear fading behavior of the new Epson HD and HDX ink sets that pretty much ensures HP's venerable Z3200 Vivera Pigmented ink set (which exhibits more a linear fading behavior) will remain king of the hill in terms of overall light fastness behavior on various media as more tests are conducted and published.   Nevertheless, the HD/HDX ink sets are without a doubt a solid improvement over the older Epson HDR and K3 ink sets, but it's hard to predict with trendline analyses where such non linear systems will finally reach the defined failure point. In other words, the tests really need to go to completion before a definitive score can be decided, but protracted completion dates don't always satisfy corporate marketing agendas.  The first press release in 2015 was thus more optimistic of the eventual test outcome because the non linearity was not as obvious in the testing data at that point in time. The newer press release is subtly more restrained by using the phrase "approaching 200 years" rather than "up to 200 years', and I think this subtle rephrasing reflects the fact that as the WIR tests proceeded between 2015 and 2017 the non linearity factor became more obvious as also has happened in our testing here at Aardenburg Imaging & Archives.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

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