Matte B&W prints - Canon Pro 1000 or Epson SC-P600?

[slunce]

Hello,

I am making decision between these two printers. Most important aspect for me is the ability to make as neutral matte BW prints as possible.
My paper of choice will be, in most cases, HM PhotoRag 308 (in 95% of prints).

I have following questions -

1) I expect myself using dedicated BW mode on either printer (or at least from the beginning). Is there a reason to prefer Epson's ABW or the Canon's BW mode? Are they more or less equal in terms of neutrality? As both allow to adjust colour tint can I expect to use this tool to achieve equal BW performance?

2) I did some test prints on SC-P600 and although the BW looks pretty good I was not able to use tint adjustment to achieve neutral looking print on some papers like HM PhotoRag Bright White. Then I read about ImagePrint and thought about it as a backup option should ABW not work in some scenarios - I am mentioning this as there is no ImagePrint for Canon. Is availability of this kind of software a reason to prefer Epson solution?
(I am starting to print and at least for now I would not be able to afford calibration solution to make my own ICC profiles.)

3) When I tried SC-P600 I experienced some banding, again mostly on HM PhotoRag. Only when I did not have access to the printer anymore I read that using the highest DPI (Finest detail, 5760dpi and hi-speed off) might in some cases help (it was not due to clogging and was only visible in uniform areas in both bw and colour prints). I believe I had platen set to Wide and tried both unidirectional and bidirectional printing but unfortunately I did not try highest dpi settings Epson support did not want even to discuss the issue when I mentioned using 3rd party paper which did not really impress me.

What I have seen is described by others for example - here .

Are these kind of issues general or should I give preference to either printer brand? Which printer provides most control to mitigate the issue? Or do I have to give up HM PhotoRag (which I do not want to)?

---

As to why I have not included SC-P800 - I tried it already however I kept getting strange artefacts at the very end of A3+ pages unless I left minimum of 2-3 cm white borders (regardless of head height settings etc). This was *only* on HM PhotoRag paper, Epson papers were fine but unfortunately I don't like either Hot or Cold press Epson papers. I do not really need bigger than A3+ but want to be able to print to the edge of the paper - this leaves me with SC-P600 or Canon Pro-1000.

From what I have said it seems like my issues would go away if I drop HM PhotoRag papers however I am a bit stubborn in this regard and I am convinced I must be able to find solution which works for this paper. I do not have availability of many paper brands in my country and I simply love that paper.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Petr

[Mark D Segal]

All three of those printers - EPson P600, Epson P800 and Canon Pro-1000 are reviewed on this site, the latter two with sunstantial data on B&W performance. There is no reason why any of these printers should cause banding or artifacts on a paper such as Hahnemhuhle PhotoRag 308 (also reviewed on this site) provided the files are prepared properly and the settings in the software and printer are correct. And no, you should not need a RIP to produce fully satisfactory B&W prints from these printers.

[slunce]

Thanks Mark,

Thanks for your comment. I have subscribed and read all the excellent reviews and the very fact they do not indicate there should be any issues whatsoever is why I am raising these questions in wider forum.

I am perplexed as -

I managed to print the same images (same files) on sc-p600 and sc-p800 and I have never seen banding on sc-p800, yet I got it on sc-p600 prints (it's faint but it's there). Using the same files, there was no issue whatsoever on any Epson papers (I tried Exhibition Fiber and Hot Press).

Vice versa, I have never seen any artifacts on sc-p600 prints but consistently got them on sc-p800. They look like coarse dithering pattern and I got impression it's due to paper curl. I flattened the paper before using it in the printer however as it bends when going through the printer (first during load using front feed, second during printing) I think the trailing paper edge gets inevitably closer to the print head. Epson papers are definitely more firm than HM PhotoRag and I did not get this. Otherwise I was pleased there was no banding and the quality was excellent.

I do not have macro lens but will try to link a photo of the edge of the paper allowing you to observe what I mean.

I am nowhere near experience of you guys however these are real issues I've experienced which I don't think are caused by file preparation.

Best Regards,
Petr

All three of those printers - EPson P600, Epson P800 and Canon Pro-1000 are reviewed on this site, the latter two with sunstantial data on B&W performance. There is no reason why any of these printers should cause banding or artifacts on a paper such as Hahnemhuhle PhotoRag 308 (also reviewed on this site) provided the files are prepared properly and the settings in the software and printer are correct. And no, you should not need a RIP to produce fully satisfactory B&W prints from these printers.

[Mark D Segal]

I can't speak directly for the Epson P600 because I haven't used it. But I have printed Hahnemuhle PhotoRag 308 in the P800 and I didn't see any artifacts. So it could be useful if you post as best you can images of what you are observing as well as screen grabs of all the settings in the printer driver.

[Paul Roark]

Some of us B&W types prefer Epson printers because we use QuadToneRip and dedicated B&W inksets.  A rip gives you more control over the print tone, and the Epson piezo head can handle a wider range of inks, including dedicated B&W inksets.  I can even print with Canon or HP pigments in my Epson printers; the reverse isn't possible.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[slunce]

I can't speak directly for the Epson P600 because I haven't used it. But I have printed Hahnemuhle PhotoRag 308 in the P800 and I didn't see any artifacts. So it could be useful if you post as best you can images of what you are observing as well as screen grabs of all the settings in the printer driver.

I have difficulties to get a decent scan or photo to demonstrate the defect - this example is not ideal however it's the best I've got so far (it's a scan). If you open the picture you should see rough dot pattern on the top and smooth rest of the photo as you scroll down. The actual print does not show dots in the smooth part, only in the top part. The effect is most disturbing in light areas where it is very noticeable. And it's not even borderless.

Do you see what I mean?

Petr

[Mark D Segal]

Not sure that I do - just some small white specs on a blurry gray background on the right side of what is posted. Is that what you mean?

[slunce]

Not sure that I do - just some small white specs on a blurry gray background on the right side of what is posted. Is that what you mean?

I am sorry, the white specs are snow If you display at 100 % go to middle top part (where it's near white shade) and then scroll down/back up and you should see the coarseness of the texture changes quite a bit. It's more obvious on retina screen. It's coarse along the top frame edge.

If you can't see it I have to adjust my expectations ;-)

[Mark D Segal]

Yes, OK, I see what you mean now - thanks for the guidance. I have never seen that before, so regrettably hard to advise on what may be causing it. Can you provide a few screen grabs of all your driver settings? I'm wondering whether there is a quality issue with one of the settings.

[slunce]

When I bent the paper hard it got better. Also, it was a bit better with 1440 dpi compared to 2880 dpi. But it was there all the time and always on trailing edge, the picture itself (apart from last 3cm or so) was absolutely fine. As I said I never got this on Epson papers.

I can't copy and past driver settings as the printer is long gone and I uninstalled it

Now I will try to scan banding I got on SC-P600 prints. I think it will be more difficult to show on scanned photo.

[shadowblade]

Are you planning to use this printer for colour at all?

If not, I'd go for a Piezography setup. Get an old, second-hand printer and hook it up to the right inks. It will give you better results, and probably work out cheaper.

[tonyrom]

Hi Petr,

Two comments on the banding, one of them is for good measure.

1. Good Measure:  Did you do a nozzle check to make sure they are all firing?
 
2. I can't remember the paper but it was a matte paper, Canson and Epson are the two types I use, I noticed the print had "bands" of stronger colors.  Not a strong difference but noticeable.  The prints cured over night and the "bands" went away.  It could be the P600 is laying down too much MK ink.  I spoke with John @ ImagePrint and he mentioned this was one of the advantages of his software over the Epson drivers.

-tony

[slunce]

Hi Petr,

Two comments on the banding, one of them is for good measure.

1. Good Measure:  Did you do a nozzle check to make sure they are all firing?
 
2. I can't remember the paper but it was a matte paper, Canson and Epson are the two types I use, I noticed the print had "bands" of stronger colors.  Not a strong difference but noticeable.  The prints cured over night and the "bands" went away.  It could be the P600 is laying down too much MK ink.  I spoke with John @ ImagePrint and he mentioned this was one of the advantages of his software over the Epson drivers.

-tony

Hello Tony,

1. Yes, nozzle check was fine, I also run cleaning and head adjustment. Head adjustment is another thing I got puzzled about as since I did it (I did several times) I felt the prints had less uniform colour, or rather what I perceive as smaller density (I could see more dots). Colour had less impact, felt washed out, like you could see more of the paper surface - I am sorry I can't explain myself in more exact manner.   

2. The bands were visible in both lighter and darker colour parts, on matte paper (only HM PhotoRag, Epson Hot Press was fine). I printed using the lower DPI and regret I did not try the 5760 option as I've read that can fix the issue - however I also doubt it since I would expect 5760 dpi to lay down more ink.

It looks like there is overlap of 2 head passes creating darker banding on the head pass edges if that makes any sense at all. Or possibly like there is curl for a moment when ink is laid down and next head pass does not have the paper straight however when it comes out of the printer there is no curl to be seen and the bands remain.

It is interesting to know the ImagePrint can potentially take care of that. Unfortunately it is not yet available for sc-p600 to try. On the other side I very much like the colour from sc-p600 and I am bit afraid the pro-1000 will have different character (despite the fact I do BW in 95% of my prints).

[slunce]

Yes, OK, I see what you mean now - thanks for the guidance. I have never seen that before, so regrettably hard to advise on what may be causing it. Can you provide a few screen grabs of all your driver settings? I'm wondering whether there is a quality issue with one of the settings.

I am not able to produce scan which would make the banding issue obvious.
But it looks exactly like this http://blog.brettlerickson.com/2015/12/22/museum-quality-fine-art-black-and-white-inkjet-prints-from-the-epson-3880-surecolor-p800/02-prints-side-by-side-detail/.

But I hesitate to buy the printer based on assumption the higher DPI would fix it. Since it's the only thing pushing me towards Canon Pro-1000 I might as well give it another try. Just the return procedure is real pain

[Mark D Segal]

I am not able to produce scan which would make the banding issue obvious.
But it looks exactly like this http://blog.brettlerickson.com/2015/12/22/museum-quality-fine-art-black-and-white-inkjet-prints-from-the-epson-3880-surecolor-p800/02-prints-side-by-side-detail/.

But I hesitate to buy the printer based on assumption the higher DPI would fix it. Since it's the only thing pushing me towards Canon Pro-1000 I might as well give it another try. Just the return procedure is real pain

That article is the reason why I wanted to see your driver settings. He's right that printing at 2880 with High Speed OFF will produce the best quality prints. (Though there are people who print with High Speed on at 1440 and don't report these issues).

If the P600 is laying down too much ink, this is most likely a problem with the profile and not the printer. A good custom profile obtainable from first-rate providers for $75-100 would fix that.

A Canon Pro-1000 is capable of producing B&W quality every bit as good as what you'll get from an Epson P600/P800. In this class of printer, the brand is less important than the operator; the quality you get out depends on the savvy you put in. 

[slunce]

That article is the reason why I wanted to see your driver settings. He's right that printing at 2880 with High Speed OFF will produce the best quality prints. (Though there are people who print with High Speed on at 1440 and don't report these issues).

If the P600 is laying down too much ink, this is most likely a problem with the profile and not the printer. A good custom profile obtainable from first-rate providers for $75-100 would fix that.

A Canon Pro-1000 is capable of producing B&W quality every bit as good as what you'll get from an Epson P600/P800. In this class of printer, the brand is less important than the operator; the quality you get out depends on the savvy you put in.

Do you think that when the article suggests using 2880, rather than 1440 (default setting), for sc-p800 to fix this issue, one can assume the same might work for sc-p600 - just that in case of sc-p600 one would need to select 5760, rather than 2880 (default setting)?

 

[Mark D Segal]

I wouldn't know for sure without testing it, and as I don't have an SCP-600 I regret that I can't answer that question.

[slunce]

I wouldn't know for sure without testing it, and as I don't have an SCP-600 I regret that I can't answer that question.

What I regret most here is that Epson support did not even want to discuss this and suggest options. I understand they can't take responsibility for results with just any paper out there however their attitude was a bit too extreme to my taste.

When I've seen Canon providing their own profiles for other media with Pro-1000 it came to me as a sharp contrast to my short Epson experience.

Might be just Czech Republic, too small of a market for any brand.

[FabienP]

I do occasionally print on Hahnemühle Photo Rag 188gsm paper (A3+ sheets) on the SC-P600 and have never experienced the banding issue that is shown on your scanned print (however, I did with a previous printer; see remark below).

The printer driver parameters that I use on the SC-P600 are the following:
Velvet Fine Art Paper
5760x1440 dpi
Paper thickness: 3
Platen gap: standard
Front loading
High-speed bi-directional printing (I could not notice any difference between this setting and the unidirectional printing, so I left the default)

The paper thickness would not be suitable for the heavier 308 gsm paper that you use.

I never print on the lower quality settings and can't tell if this could negatively affect print quality. Unfortunately, I currently use the PK ink cartridge and have several ink cartridges on a low level, so I am a bit unwilling to switch inks to make a test print at the lower quality settings.

Interestingly, towards the end of life of my previous printer (an Epson R2400), I did have similar artifacts. These were perpendicular to the movement of the paper. I could never tell if the problem was related with paper handling issues with the roll mechanism. To my knowledge, there are no parameters which can be adjusted by the end-user to tweak the advancement of paper in 13" Epson printers.

Cheers,

Fabien

[slunce]

Hello Fabien,

Thanks a lot for your comment. It provides some indication things might improve with the highest DPI settings.

I noticed there are more options with the 17'' Epson driver. As far as I remember, there is an option to adjust the advancement of the paper and I think there is a note this could be used to improve banding if that is not fixed by head alignment. But you are right there is no such option in 13'' driver dialog, makes me wonder why not

Regards,
Petr