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Author Topic: Canvas issues - HELP!  (Read 1695 times)

Kanvas Keepsakes

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Canvas issues - HELP!
« on: August 04, 2016, 01:02:46 am »

Hey everyone.  What a disaster.  I ordered a roll of gloss canvas that "supposedly" needed no coating.  It came pre-coated.  Was reassured it was not going to crack and everything would be ok.  Fast forward to today.  Printed all 6 canvas wraps needed for an awards assembly for tomorrow and instant cracking on any fold and even on the edges where the canvas wraps around the stretcher bar.  I load in what little I have of some Torion canvas I had.  Company told me to use Canon Artistic Matte Canvas as paper type and I downloaded the plugin profile from their site.  I've printed photos without an issue with this paper.  I'm trying to print these canvas wraps with a lot of text on them and it doesn't look good.  A little blurry.  Cursive font has some parts of the cursive letters not showing well.  Some of the logos look a little blurry when they look perfectly clear with the other gloss paper type.  Is this a limitation on the canvas unable to display this kind of detail?  Or is it the plugin profile?  Attached are images of what I'm talking about. 

If you look at the text and images on the Canon Artistic Matte Canvas paper it all looks blurry.  Not very blurry but noticeably blurry. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 01:41:58 am by Kanvas Keepsakes »
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dgberg

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Re: Canvas paper issues - HELP!
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2016, 06:03:00 am »

What size was the original file and what did you uprez and print it at?
Canvas that was pre-coated, what brand?
We coat everything here, even if the manufacturer says it is not required.

Garnick

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Re: Canvas paper issues - HELP!
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2016, 10:48:01 am »

What size was the original file and what did you uprez and print it at?
Canvas that was pre-coated, what brand?
We coat everything here, even if the manufacturer says it is not required.

"It came pre-coated".  This is from the OP, and I'm not at all certain what he is referring to.  I've been printing canvases since '06 and have never found a canvas that was "pre-coated", which I would assume to mean that it had already been coated with some sort of varnish, aqueous based or otherwise.  Of course the obvious issue then would be that the inks would very likely not adhere to that "varnish" coating at all, and if they did it wouldn't be for long.  Yes, of course there are various brands of Gloss Canvas that are advertised as not requiring any sort of coating/varnishing, but personally I would never let a canvas leave my premises without being properly coated/varnished.  There are two basic reasons for coating --  to protect the inks from marring, and also hopefully protect the inks from cracking.  Even if I did choose to print on Gloss Canvas, I would still apply a minimum of three protective coats before handing it over to my customer. 

I agree completely with Dan, we need a lot more information in this case.  Also, please resist the urge to call it "canvas paper".  There is no such thing as far as I'm aware.  Canvas is a fabric and paper is paper.

EDIT:  For what it's worth, I've been using the Breathing Color Chromata White Matte canvas for at least 6 years with no issues.  As mentioned, I then apply 3 coats of Eco Print Shield, and again, no cracking issues.  And
          no, I'm definitely not a shill for BC, just a long time customer.  As always - if it works, don't fix it.
 
Gary     
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 11:30:26 am by Garnick »
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Gary N.
"My memory isn't what it used to be. As a matter of fact it never was." (gan)

Landscapes

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Re: Canvas paper issues - HELP!
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2016, 11:01:34 am »

When I first started making canvases years ago, I used a Canon canvas and later found out that it cracked horribly.  It may have even been the exact one that you have, Artistic Matte Canvas.  What I did like about it was that the shadows seemed to hold up much better, but it was useless otherwise.  It didn't matter how much I coated the canvas with a varnish, it still cracked, almost as if that "gesso", the coating on the canvas which acts as the ink receiving layer didn't adhere to the actual fibers properly.

Anyway, my experience with the gloss or satin canvas is that the surface looks pretty, but since the ink isn't sealed with a varnish, it will smudge off.  I didn't have it crack, the Epson line of Exhibition canvas, but since you can't really touch it with moist hands, its useless for long term.  You still need to coat, and then why bother with paying for expensive gloss or satin, just but the matter and coat that.

As for your issues with the printing, I see the issue.  The Canon one doesn't seem to be able to accept the ink well enough, so you're able to see the dot pattern so much easier.  This to me means that there isn't much you can do with this canvas.

Since the glossy one is at least printing up fine, you need to look into coating it before stretching.  Once its used up, just get a matte version and coat that and you will be good to go.
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Kanvas Keepsakes

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Re: Canvas paper issues - HELP!
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2016, 09:36:54 pm »

Don't want to throw the company under the bus but it was pretty much sold to me as "no coating needed."  They told me no cracking.  That they were able to pre-coat it perfectly so I wouldn't have to.  Too good to be true I guess.  Was hoping I could hang up my spray gun for good.  It's the biggest pain in the process.  As for the canvas FABRIC I'll be switching back to my regular one I usually use.  Proper paper profile wasn't available from manufacturer so they advised me to use the Canon Artistic Matte Canvas option.  Since i know the other canvas FABRIC prints correctly, I'm sure it's a profile or FABRIC profile issue.  Thanks for the help, guys. 
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Garnick

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Re: Canvas paper issues - HELP!
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2016, 08:55:31 am »

Don't want to throw the company under the bus but it was pretty much sold to me as "no coating needed."  They told me no cracking.  That they were able to pre-coat it perfectly so I wouldn't have to.  Too good to be true I guess.  Was hoping I could hang up my spray gun for good.  It's the biggest pain in the process.  As for the canvas FABRIC I'll be switching back to my regular one I usually use.  Proper paper profile wasn't available from manufacturer so they advised me to use the Canon Artistic Matte Canvas option.  Since i know the other canvas FABRIC prints correctly, I'm sure it's a profile or FABRIC profile issue.  Thanks for the help, guys.

Hmmm...looks like my rather unobtrusive reference to canvas vs paper found a mark.  It was meant only to differentiate between the two mediums, but I guess it struck a chord that I hadn't anticipated.  Well, actually that's not quite true, because on some minor level I did anticipate it, and unfortunately I was correct.  However, I do think your canvas "FABRIC" reference is somewhat over the top and rather telling.  Simply "canvas" is fine.

Now to get back to the topic at hand.  There is indeed no such thing as "pre-coated" canvas, if by that your mean a canvas that has been pre-coated to protect the inks from cracking while stretching or otherwise.  If that statement is incorrect I hope someone will chime in and let me know, because I would leap at the opportunity to try such a product, but likely only once.  As I mentioned in my initial reply, if there is indeed such a product, the inks would not adhere to the coating and would smear or rub off rather quickly.  As a matter of fact, if you were to print on a gloss canvas it would not be advisable to apply any sort of protective coating using the roller method, since that would also very likely pick up and smear the inks.  Before I started printing on canvas many years ago I did a lot of research and decided that I would be using a matte canvas, since I would be rolling the coating.  Except for one particular brand of inkjet canvas the roller method has always served me very well, no problems.  If I did indeed have the space I too would be spraying, but I don't, so I don't.

One more thing.  What paper/canvas profile do you use to test your images before printing?  As mentioned, I print on matte canvas, and I test on matte paper, since paper is more cost effective for testing.  I then use the matte paper profile for the final print, with a slight adjustment for the canvas.  That has been my workflow for as long as I've been printing canvas and it produces excellent results.  Perhaps something that might be useful for your situation.  In other words, try a few different profiles and see how they print on any particular canvas.  I would assume that a gloss paper profile would work best for a gloss canvas, but of course I have never tested that theory, since I print only on matte canvas.  My usual coating method is two coats of matte or satin finish and the third(final) coat is a 50/50 mix of satin and gloss.  A very nice combination, and I can also do strictly gloss for those who like that effect.  Personally the gloss is a bit much, but to each his/her own of course.  Hope this might be of some help.

Cheers  :)

Gary       



   
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 08:25:07 am by Garnick »
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Gary N.
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Patricia Sheley

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Re: Canvas FABRIC issues - HELP!
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2016, 09:34:59 am »

In this bizarre world, I actually find myself wondering if the OP was speaking to a salesman who believed he was indeed looking for pre-coated canvas/fabric. As I come from a painting background, it was at Pratt that I first was educated to the fact that I no longer needed to use "pre-coated" canvas, as in pre-gessoed canvas, or board or fabric. Opened up a new view for me when I purchased my first tubs of gesso and let at it with every sort of foundation and tooth.

Perhaps each of the two parties thought they knew which form of pre-coated product they were referring to albeit in different realms.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 09:49:13 am by Patricia Sheley »
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Garnick

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Re: Canvas FABRIC issues - HELP!
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2016, 11:17:31 am »

In this bizarre world, I actually find myself wondering if the OP was speaking to a salesman who believed he was indeed looking for pre-coated canvas/fabric. As I come from a painting background, it was at Pratt that I first was educated to the fact that I no longer needed to use "pre-coated" canvas, as in pre-gessoed canvas, or board or fabric. Opened up a new view for me when I purchased my first tubs of gesso and let at it with every sort of foundation and tooth.

Perhaps each of the two parties thought they knew which form of pre-coated product they were referring to albeit in different realms.

Hi Patricia,

I can certainly identify with what you have mentioned concerning your experience with what I will refer to as "artist canvas".  Although probably not the preferred reference to such a product, it's the only one that comes to mind at the moment.  I am familiar with the gesso coating used in advance of applying oil, and I believe also acrylic to the canvas, although I may be wrong about the "acrylic" reference.  And you are quite right, there is definitely a disconnect here between the OP and others who have chimed in on this subject, including myself.  However, I can only approach it with the experience I have accumulated after more that 10 years of working with "Inkjet canvas".  Indeed, there is a very definite difference between gesso coated canvas and inkjet "coated" canvas.  As you of course are well aware, painting on an uncoated(i.e. no gesso coating) canvas would be an exercise in futility, unless one wanted that particular effect, for some unknown reason.  The same reasoning applies to Inkjet canvas.  After the canvas has been prepared, the final step is to apply what's usually referred to as the "Inkjet receptor" coating, which accepts the inks and provides a proper base for producing an image that one would want to display, in home or otherwise.  Without that receptor coating the printed image would be totally useless, unless one wanted THAT particular effect, for some unknown reason.  A case in point -- several years ago a customer of mine was interested in trying another local printer who had done some business cards and flyers for him, to perhaps print a canvas, since the proprietor of that shop had been telling him that he could do it much "cheaper".  A few days later he brought the canvas that he had printed by the other shop and asked if I could tell him what was wrong with it.  At that moment I had no idea, except to agree that it was a terrible job.  There was something about the canvas that just didn't seem right, but I couldn't immediately come up with an answer.  About a week later another artist customer brought in a canvas to be scanned and reproduced.  As I was handling the stretched canvas I had to make a slight adjustment to the back in order to help it lie flat on the scanner bed, and as I did I noticed that the canvas my other customer had printer elsewhere was of the same ilk as the one I was scanning.  I then came to the conclusion that the other print shop had printed his image on artist's canvas that had been gesso coated.  Hence, a very dull and lifeless reproduction that in no way compared with the one I had already printed for him.  Needless to say, my customer got his money back from the other shop and I am still printing his canvases.  Just another way of pointing out the differences between gesso coating and Inkjet receptor coating.  Also the fact that once again the "coating" aspect of this thread has to be put in two categories -- Inkjet receptor and the protective coating/varnishing.  In the case of the OP it's obvious that the supplier of the "pre-coated" canvas he purchased was not being totally honest about its ability to withstand stretching etc. without exhibiting cracking issues.

Gary                       


 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 02:24:59 pm by Garnick »
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Gary N.
"My memory isn't what it used to be. As a matter of fact it never was." (gan)

Kanvas Keepsakes

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Re: Canvas FABRIC issues - HELP!
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2016, 01:40:51 am »

Garnic, I apologize for that aggressive reference on my reply.  I let my frustration with this situation get the best of me.  I apologize.  I realize that when discussing issues with experts I should except some constructive criticism. 

This roll was sold to me as a pre-coated roll that I could print and immediately cut and stretch.  No coating recommended.  I now realize it would be almost impossible to make a canvas with coating on it that would allow ink to go UNDER the coating.     :o

Update:  I got a replacement roll from the company.  Replacement roll with a type I almost always use.  I loaded the paper profile and the output profile appropriately.  I printed and lo and behold, some text on the print was not correct.  On some small text it was actually printed twice so it looks blurry.  I'm attaching images so you can see what I'm talking about.  The weird thing is that when I printed on the glossy canvas with it's own profiles, it printed the text perfect.  Can't figure out what would cause this issue.  The nice Edwardian Script text was not complete in some areas such as very thin arches in the text.  I switched to a fatter bold text and problem solved.  I still can't figure out why some of the tiny text was duplicated twice. 

Logo.png is the screenshot of my photoshop layout with the logo on the screen.  Logo_yellow_star.jpg is a photo I took with my phone of the output. 
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