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Author Topic: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds  (Read 6789 times)

Denis de Gannes

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2016, 07:12:43 PM »

Since I use both ACR with Br and LR, I can tell you no amount of hardware can fix the problem.  They can help make Lr less slow than it would be otherwise.  There are 2 issues with Lr performance.  The first is just poor programming.  The second, however, is fundamental to Lr.  Because it's very nature, Lr must do reads and writes on a continuous basis to a structured database.  In Develop, for example, while ACR reads and writes once (after you click done or open), Lr is continuously updating.  This is where lightning fast SSDs help with Lr beyond what they would with ACR.

One performance tip is not to have it write to the sidecar xmp files. The faster way is to turn the catalog writing off and have it only write out once to the XMP file.  Of course, that negates the whole design.
There is no option in Lightroom to "turn the Catalog writing off", Lightroom by design reads and writes to the catalog file. It only automatically reads from an xmp file at Import, if info is added to the xmp file after import then the user will have to manually instruct Lightroom to update the info in the xmp file to the Catalog File.
By design Lightroom operates on the premise that the info is in the Catalog, while Adobe Camera Raw / Bridge only works from the info in the file (xmp sidecar or in the file header).
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dwswager

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2016, 08:25:02 PM »

There is no option in Lightroom to "turn the Catalog writing off", Lightroom by design reads and writes to the catalog file. It only automatically reads from an xmp file at Import, if info is added to the xmp file after import then the user will have to manually instruct Lightroom to update the info in the xmp file to the Catalog File.
By design Lightroom operates on the premise that the info is in the Catalog, while Adobe Camera Raw / Bridge only works from the info in the file (xmp sidecar or in the file header).

Yes, that was my point.  It would negate the whole design of the program.  But constantly reading and writing to a database is much slower than a one time write to an xmp file.  However, if there appears significant opportunity to tighten up the code to improve performance.
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Denis de Gannes

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2016, 08:52:18 PM »

Yes, that was my point.  It would negate the whole design of the program.  But constantly reading and writing to a database is much slower than a one time write to an xmp file.  However, if there appears significant opportunity to tighten up the code to improve performance.

Is this really true ACR is retaining the edits in memory as you work while Lightroom is writing to the Catalog as you perform a function. The point in an earlier post is that Automatically write to xmp is creating an additional function for Lightroom and this must be creating a lag, whether this is significant or not is the issue. How fast these processes occure will be dictated by the weakest link, internal HDD vs external HDD via USB connection and or Internal SSD vs external SSD via USB connection.
Availability of free space on the respective drives also affect the performance.     
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2016, 10:45:50 AM »

Yes, that was my point.  It would negate the whole design of the program.  But constantly reading and writing to a database is much slower than a one time write to an xmp file.  However, if there appears significant opportunity to tighten up the code to improve performance.

The writes to the catalog in the Develop module is very little as would be expected with a SQL database. This is not the bottleneck in Lightroom as I mentioned before.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2016, 11:33:11 AM »

Agreed however if you are using Lightroom for file management and processing of raw data and Photoshop / Photoshop Elements for further editing there is really no need to write to xmp.

After your editing and other file management options in Lightroom you use the edit in function in Lightroom to send the file to Photoshop (or another photo editing application) for further editing if needed. This function does not require you to write to xmp. Also no other non Adobe application can utilise the Develop Module edits from the xmp file.

To wit there is life without the use of xmp files and this is the main reason that I adopted Lightroom as the application for the processing of my raw files. Since I have been using Lightroom (2007) I have not used xmp files (other than to share with other users or the transfer data after I have returned from an external trip.). My workflow is "simple sweet" the metadata info is in the Lightroom Catalog and I do not have the need to manage xmp files.,   

Correct and the only reason for having xmp write on is for recovery after a catalog corruption. Doing regular catalog backups is a good thing to do if you check the option for Lightroom to check the integrity of the catalog. There is only a need to keep the most recent catalog backup. If a catalog gets corrupted after a catalog backup the recovery process could look like this:

1) Copy the Lightroom catalog backup into the location where the catalog is normally stored for active use. In the same folder as where the previews are stored. This is now the active catalog.
2) For any new folders created in imported into Lightroom after the catalog backup need to be imported again into the active catalog (which is the one created in step 1 above). Lightroom will read all xmp files in the folder and copy the information into the active catalog.
3) For any folders where new files has been added, do a synchronize folder for each of them and import the files that were not in the catalog.
4) For any files that has been edited since the old catalog backup will have an ! mark in the thumbnail and you can click it and choose read from file.

Fortunately I never had to do this, but I do have xmp write turned on for that reason. Of course any virtual copies and collection updates are lost since the catalog backup was done. The performance impact on having xmp write on is very little.

dwswager

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2016, 09:20:13 AM »

Correct and the only reason for having xmp write on is for recovery after a catalog corruption. Doing regular catalog backups is a good thing to do if you check the option for Lightroom to check the integrity of the catalog. There is only a need to keep the most recent catalog backup. If a catalog gets corrupted after a catalog backup the recovery process could look like this:


The other reason is so that Lr and Br/ACR can sync with each other.   Br/ACR do not have access to the Lr catalog data about images and as such the XMP data is the common link.  And as Br/ACR do not suffer from near the performance issues that Lr does, there are just some tasks much more efficient in Br/ACR than Lr.  This also applies to any other program that can read the XMP file, now or in the future.

BTW, it is not only the SQL writes that cause issues.  It appears that Lr, reads slider position movements and hesitations much more literally than ACR.  As such, I find that it is much quicker to trigger screen updates to match the new slider positions than ACR.  The good is that on smaller images with a quick system, it is much more "interactive" than ACR.  On the downside with large images, on a 4K screen this triggers screen updating even when you just hesitate the slide and this really slows down.  ACR seems to take the stance "make up your mind and then I'll update"  while Lr seems to try to keep up with you.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2016, 11:25:45 AM »

Exchange of data with programs like Bridge is not the other reason for having xmp writing enabled - it is the reason. Backup isn't, since xmp fails to include a swathe of the information and work that you do in Lightroom. Corrupt catalogues are very rare, and the safeguard is to routinely backup your catalogue.
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JRSmit

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2016, 12:12:22 PM »

Still have to experience e a corrupt catalog in LR and i use it every day.
Ayear or so I did an inquiry on who had experience ed a corrupt catalog. Turned out that either no one dared to mention it or it simply does not occur.
Also theLR catalog ba kup is just that only the database.  Not your previews or image files.
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donbga

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2016, 09:48:11 PM »


At the moment I am really hoping that one 1 software will deliver on their promise of super fast raw processing with photo raw when it lands in the autumn! Perhaps it will make Adobe address the woeful performance of lightroom at long last. 

Ben

Have you considered Capture One as an alternative. It should be a an excellent alternative.
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dwswager

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2016, 11:53:39 AM »

Have you considered Capture One as an alternative. It should be a an excellent alternative.

Capture One is a great alternative to the Develop Module in Lr, but not for Lr.  In fact, a great alternative to the develop module is ACR!!!  All the tools, much less of the performance woes.  Best part is that Lr will respect and reflect the effort much more readily than any other RAW converter.  This is really the reason I have used other converters for special applications, but have never switch wholesale.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2016, 12:27:41 PM »

The other reason is so that Lr and Br/ACR can sync with each other.   Br/ACR do not have access to the Lr catalog data about images and as such the XMP data is the common link.  And as Br/ACR do not suffer from near the performance issues that Lr does, there are just some tasks much more efficient in Br/ACR than Lr.  This also applies to any other program that can read the XMP file, now or in the future.

BTW, it is not only the SQL writes that cause issues.  It appears that Lr, reads slider position movements and hesitations much more literally than ACR.  As such, I find that it is much quicker to trigger screen updates to match the new slider positions than ACR.  The good is that on smaller images with a quick system, it is much more "interactive" than ACR.  On the downside with large images, on a 4K screen this triggers screen updating even when you just hesitate the slide and this really slows down.  ACR seems to take the stance "make up your mind and then I'll update"  while Lr seems to try to keep up with you.

I normally do not use ACR, but tried it and on my MacBook Pro I do not feel any difference in speed.

You continue to mention at there is an issue with the SQL write and reads, but there isn't! Run the performance monitor side by side running Lightroom and you will see there is not much I/O going on. You can also measure it. I cannot imagine that there is a difference between Windows and Mac regarding this. If you think about what Lightroom need to do with the database and you know something ab ut databases you should convince yourself that this is not where the issue is.

I continue to see issues with how the GPU is used. When I drag a slider I often see a glimpse of a previous version of the image flashing for a short moment. E.g. when converting a virtual copy to b&w I see the color version flashing for a short moment when dragging a slider. There is no doubt differences between the Mac and Windows in how the graphics is mapped. I do not know any of the details in how this is architected and coded for obvious reasons. But I would agree that Adobe has a serious amount of work to do in this area to improve performance.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2016, 12:31:50 PM »

Exchange of data with programs like Bridge is not the other reason for having xmp writing enabled - it is the reason. Backup isn't, since xmp fails to include a swathe of the information and work that you do in Lightroom. Corrupt catalogues are very rare, and the safeguard is to routinely backup your catalogue.

As mentioned this is the reason I have xmp write enabled, so that in case a catalog gets corrupted I can save most of my image edits done since the last backup. Given that I never had a corrupt of lost catalog one can argue it is not needed. But since it does not cost anything really I still have it on. I the beginning using Lightroom I still used Bridge and Photoshop from Bridge and I need the xmp's for some automated scripts. It is, of course, the reason for why Adobe built the xmp write feature.

dwswager

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2016, 12:49:06 PM »

I normally do not use ACR, but tried it and on my MacBook Pro I do not feel any difference in speed.

You continue to mention at there is an issue with the SQL write and reads, but there isn't! Run the performance monitor side by side running Lightroom and you will see there is not much I/O going on. You can also measure it. I cannot imagine that there is a difference between Windows and Mac regarding this. If you think about what Lightroom need to do with the database and you know something ab ut databases you should convince yourself that this is not where the issue is.

I continue to see issues with how the GPU is used. When I drag a slider I often see a glimpse of a previous version of the image flashing for a short moment. E.g. when converting a virtual copy to b&w I see the color version flashing for a short moment when dragging a slider. There is no doubt differences between the Mac and Windows in how the graphics is mapped. I do not know any of the details in how this is architected and coded for obvious reasons. But I would agree that Adobe has a serious amount of work to do in this area to improve performance.

I'm on Windows so maybe there are some differences between IOS and Windows.  All I know is that when in develop module in LR, the sliders have significant hesitation some times.  I also have to wait some times for the scroll of the tools on the right side of the develop module window.  In ACR,  I can't say I ever get that type of slow down.  Bottom line, for develop, I am much more efficient in ACR than Lr.  Just last night, while developing some soccer game images, about half way through them, I jumped out of Lr and into Br to finish with ACR.  I have to admit that I much prefer the tabbed tools in ACR rather than scrolling forever to get from one end to the other of the tool bar in Lr.  And collapsing and opening the tools in Lr is no solution because it adds much additional time. From a Human Engineering perspective, it is much better to have the tools always in the same exact location than constantly moving around as Lr does it.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2016, 01:10:08 PM »

I have to admit that I much prefer the tabbed tools in ACR rather than scrolling forever to get from one end to the other of the tool bar in Lr.  And collapsing and opening the tools in Lr is no solution because it adds much additional time.

So right click a panel header and choose Solo Mode. This means that as soon as you click a panel header, that panel opens and other panels are closed. No more scrolling, no more collapsing and opening.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2016, 03:21:16 PM »

Actually my first reaction to John's suggestion was to complain about having to scroll down to get to the rest of the collapsed panels until I started clicking on each panel bar's arrow.

Great tip, John!

I just wished I would've found it reading LR4's User's Guide but since this app is a clutter of nested features and options I forgot about right click on every freakin' geometrically shaped interface object spread out across LR's interface design.

See! I complimented John at the same time complained! It's a first! Now that's multitasking!
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john beardsworth

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2016, 03:56:26 PM »

I'm not sure any manual can explain this feature in a way that makes its purpose obvious, Tim. My initial reaction would probably have been "Solo Mode, huh?"

By the way, you don't even need to click the arrow - anywhere in the panel header will do fine.

Unfortunately enabling Solo Mode is on a module by module basis, so if you want it in Library you'll have to set it there in both the left and right sides in Library too.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2016, 04:51:25 PM »

Don't need it in Library which I only use to view thumbnails.

Thanks again for the Solo Mode tip.
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donbga

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2016, 10:30:26 PM »

I'm on Windows so maybe there are some differences between IOS and Windows.  All I know is that when in develop module in LR, the sliders have significant hesitation some times.  I also have to wait some times for the scroll of the tools on the right side of the develop module window.  In ACR,  I can't say I ever get that type of slow down.  Bottom line, for develop, I am much more efficient in ACR than Lr.  Just last night, while developing some soccer game images, about half way through them, I jumped out of Lr and into Br to finish with ACR.  I have to admit that I much prefer the tabbed tools in ACR rather than scrolling forever to get from one end to the other of the tool bar in Lr.  And collapsing and opening the tools in Lr is no solution because it adds much additional time. From a Human Engineering perspective, it is much better to have the tools always in the same exact location than constantly moving around as Lr does it.
Your conclusions about your experienced differences of performance betweeqn ACR and LR seem to me to be at best anecdotal.


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cortlander

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2016, 11:06:29 AM »

Have you considered Capture One as an alternative. It should be a an excellent alternative.

+1
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2016, 02:50:29 AM »

I'm on Windows so maybe there are some differences between IOS and Windows.  All I know is that when in develop module in LR, the sliders have significant hesitation some times.  I also have to wait some times for the scroll of the tools on the right side of the develop module window.  In ACR,  I can't say I ever get that type of slow down.  Bottom line, for develop, I am much more efficient in ACR than Lr.  Just last night, while developing some soccer game images, about half way through them, I jumped out of Lr and into Br to finish with ACR.  I have to admit that I much prefer the tabbed tools in ACR rather than scrolling forever to get from one end to the other of the tool bar in Lr.  And collapsing and opening the tools in Lr is no solution because it adds much additional time. From a Human Engineering perspective, it is much better to have the tools always in the same exact location than constantly moving around as Lr does it.

The Mac runs OX X and from now on Mac OS, not IOS which is only for mobile Apple devices like Iphone and Ipad.

Regarding the develop panel compared to a tab'ed view. As mentioned Solo View is a solution but I find it much better to only have the sections open that I always use, which is: Basic, tone curve and effects. I can see them all on my big screen without scrolling. For the other panels I will click on the bar for the panel which will open it and then do the adjustment and then click on the bar an close it again. I find this even more convenient than a Tab'ed view. Just my opinion :) On my MacBook I need to scroll a little more and with two fingers in the trackpad I can do this very fast.

Notice, I'm not trying to say you are wrong or you should prefer Lightroom :) Just a hint if that makes a difference for you or somebody else from someone who uses Lightroom professionally and for years.
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