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Author Topic: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds  (Read 8283 times)

Ghibby

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Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« on: August 01, 2016, 05:20:01 AM »

Hi All,

Just wondering how the EOS 5Ds and 5Dsr shooters are getting on with Lightroom CC.  Over the last year or so lightroom's glacial speed on these files has been driving me nuts.  I have it all set up to optimum levels for performance, catalogue and RAW cache are on fast SSD's, only the images themselves are on HDD's and even these are fast WD Black drives.  I have tried with GPU support on and off and in all honesty there is no major difference in performance. I have an Nvidia Quadro 4000 card at work and a GTX950 at home. My machine is fairly powerful (32gb Ram, hex core i7 at 3.2Ghz), I have a similar spec at my office and the problems are the same. 

That is slow previews in all modules, especially the 1:1 previes which can take 30sec and longer to generate per image, slow adjustments in develop module and the entire package just feels like its running through treacle.  When I process lower res files up to say 24mp all is fine but by the time you hit 40-50mp files the performance takes a massive step down.  Too much in my opinion.  To me it feels like the whole architecture of the software just can't handle these high res files. 

Be very interested to hear if any of you are experiencing similar issues with high res RAW files.

At the moment I am really hoping that one 1 software will deliver on their promise of super fast raw processing with photo raw when it lands in the autumn! Perhaps it will make Adobe address the woeful performance of lightroom at long last. 

Ben
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Rory

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2016, 09:52:40 AM »

What is the resolution of your monitor?  Have you tried running Lr in a smaller resolution window?  I'm not suggesting this is an acceptable solution, just trying to pin down where the performance issues are happening.  I have a similar system and it normally takes 5-6 seconds to render a D810 file on a 2560x1600 monitor.  When I reduce the window size so that the image pane is under 1000 pixels on a side I get much faster performance in both the develop and library modules.
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Ghibby

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2016, 10:40:32 AM »

Hi Rory,

I use a pair of screens, one is 2560x1440, the other 1920x1200. Same performance issue on both, I only use the big one for LR. I'll try a smaller window and see what happens ....

Interesting, performance is way better, image preview pane is apx 1400 x 950 px. I can do this by maximising the size of the browser strip at the bottom of the window. Thanks Rory!!

Just timed 1:1 preview generation to 11 seconds with EOS 5Ds raw files, while this is still poor at least now the slider adjustment is much less laggy. Much better.

The question now is what can be done to allow working with a larger preview pane.  I'd hate to see what happens with a 4k screen!
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Rory

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2016, 10:50:28 AM »

Glad that helps a bit.  Optimizing performance in an app like Lr is a tough proposition but I think there is still lots of room for improvement.  In the import module the rendering of the embedded JPEGs is poor.  Almost every other viewer on the market is faster.  The caching logic in the library module could use some TLC.  Adobe has been  putting some effort into improving the develop module and I'm reasonably happy with it.  I've written my own raw converter and iterating through 50,000,000 pixels with sophisticated algorithms takes time.  Showing an approximation in a 1,000,000 pixel window is much faster.
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Ghibby

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2016, 11:12:24 AM »

Hi again Rory,

It will be very interesting to see what ON1 come up with in Photo RAW.  The video previews that have been shown so far look very promising.  What amazes me is that a giant like Adobe has not ensured their program (which probably has more users than all other RAW converters combined) is not on top of performance with high res imaging.  At the end of the day with the R&D they have at their disposal and the sheer power of modern computers these kind of performance issues should not be issues we have to deal with.  I mean even the camera itself can zoom in on the embedded preview to its RAW file an order of magnitude faster than LR can.

Agree with you on the import rendering of embedded JPEG's too, again it is one of those things that really takes the shine of using LR.

I remember having similar issues with the 21mp images from my 5D2 back in 2008-2009 and it took a long time for LR 3 to be able to handle this with ease.  Hopefully the next update to LR will have some performance boost up its sleeve. Somehow I doubt it though!  Perhaps if ON1 hit a home run it will give them some impetus to do something.
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Rory

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2016, 11:18:38 AM »

I have not looked at ON1 for a while.  I'm not defending Adobe, but fast previews of JPEGs is one thing and fast previews of RAW files with multiple rendering instructions is another.  There is a reason the camera manufacturers embed JPEGs. 
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Paul2660

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2016, 12:38:18 PM »

Welcome to the club, I have moaned about this type of performance for years.  The higher resolution screens, 30" or even 27 inch cause a lot of problems with LR on 100% views,  now add either around 10 adjustment brushes, or 20 dust removal and go have a cup of coffee.  Or use the auto mask, and then attempt to refine some of it's mistakes, which creates a ton of speed issues.  It can become so bad that even once zoomed to 100%, then attempting to move the image will either crash LR or takes 20 to 25 seconds to refresh, just a bit frustrating.  And minimizing the LR window to a smaller size on a 30" screen used to help, but no longer seems to make a bit of difference, so possibly things have gotten worse.  I have the same resolution on my 30" screen as the OP.

The use or non use of modern, fast, well designed video cards and open CL is basically a waste also.  LR/Adobe states only the develop module has been written to take advantage of open CL, but I have never seen any difference on or off.  Unlike Adobe's own software Photoshop, which has an excellent design around open CL, and you can clearly see a difference visually and in a speed bench. 

I believe some find the Problem is the same on the Mac, I have read enough similar complaints from large heavy lifting Mac users. 

I have also given up on LR fixing this issue and work accordingly, trying to keep adjustment brushes to a lower number and no spot removal, instead go to CC for that.  As all digital files get larger and larger, this problem will just get worse.  But I notice on really anything 24MP and up with the conditions I previously mentioned, which is tragic as LR has an excellent tool set, one of the best.

LR is much more processor based, and system ram, so best thing I have found to do is possibly overclock a bit, turn off open CL support in LR as it eventually causes more issues over time.  And reboot after about 1 hour 2 hours max as LR seems to build up a lag over time, not sure if it's memory leak or just coding. 

Both machines I have are win10, 32GB of ram i7 4 and 3.6GHz, both with nvidia GTX970 4GB cards. You can benchmark LR on any of several open CL tools and there is literally no increase is the cuda processing needs, memory use, or need to increase fan speed to to work, the card just does basically nothing.  Same testing Adobe CC and you can see quite a bit of activity on the card.

Paul C
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2016, 05:13:37 PM »

I'm using Lightroom CC with a MacBook Pro 15" 2.8Ghz 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD. Some observations about performance. In my office I have a 4K display.

For folders where I actively edit pictures I have 1:1 previews generated and I have the setting of never discard the previews automatically in the catalog settings. When I no longer actively edit a folder og images I will discard the 1:1 previews to conserve space. The 1:1 previews are only used in the Library module so therefore I will always browse pictures and check focus, composition etc. in the Library module. In the library module the navigation is instant and zooming in is also instant. This is using the external 4K monitor. Lightroom is for my use always fully maximized on the screen and in full screen mode.

So the performance is really good in the Library module as long as 1:1 previews are generated and with 4K screens.

In the Develop module it is another story. Turning off the graphics card is a disaster. If I do that the performance comes to a complete crawl. With the graphics card turned on and zoomed in to 1:1 and the details have been rendered, I can pan across the image very smooth. Zooming in to 1:1 goes quick but the details are not fully rendered and it sometimes take 5-10 seconds before they are. I always have lens correction turned on and for edited pictures typically a lot of corrections as well as local edits. This clearly slows down performance. I have noticed a serious performance degradation after having edited for a while and this only goes away if I restart Lightroom. This is quick and not a big deal, but like the bugs to fixed around this. Moving sliders often is slow to render the changes.

It is absolutely key to switch between the Library module and the Develop module and only stay in the Develop module to edit a specific picture and move back Library no navigate across images and zoom to 1:1 to check images.

I have previously posted a thread on the issues with 4K monitors and scaling on Macs. For my normal editing I use the scaling "looks like" 2560x1440 which is not ideal. Without having solid measurements it feels slightly more responsive if I use "looks like" 1920x1080 as the intermediate scaling before mapped to the 4K screen is much less in this case (Full HD scaling maps exactly to 4K the 2x Full HD resolution). Using the retina screen (2880x1800) on the MBP only Lightroom is considerably more responsive in the Develop module.

The observations above is editing files from the Canon 5DSR. Nikon D810 files are faster to edit. Since I'm not using windows I cannot speak about this, but I suspect that my findings should map to Windows as well depending on HW used.

john beardsworth

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 03:48:06 AM »

It is absolutely key to switch between the Library module and the Develop module and only stay in the Develop module to edit a specific picture and move back Library no navigate across images and zoom to 1:1 to check images.

While I agree with your general points about previews, Hans, this seems too hard-line - and in any case you may want to review it after the change introduced in 6.6 (and corrected in 6.6.1). Develop now caches 2 extra images in either direction, making it much more viable to navigate in Develop. The benefits were dramatic with 6.6 on my underpowered Mac Air, and the 6.6.1 update extended them to my Windows desktop (6.6.1 was because the change screwed high RAM machines).

John
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 08:25:29 AM »

While I agree with your general points about previews, Hans, this seems too hard-line - and in any case you may want to review it after the change introduced in 6.6 (and corrected in 6.6.1). Develop now caches 2 extra images in either direction, making it much more viable to navigate in Develop. The benefits were dramatic with 6.6 on my underpowered Mac Air, and the 6.6.1 update extended them to my Windows desktop (6.6.1 was because the change screwed high RAM machines).

John

Although I see improvements in the Develop module in moving from one image to the next, I still find it slow to do that and zoom in and out when checking images. I think it is nice to have the improvement when you go to the next image in order to edit it and just do that by the arrow keys left or right while in the Develop module. But reviewing images and checking for sharpness etc. I find it better to stay in the Library module and there select the pictures to work on in the Develop module. This is basically how I work and I'm not sure this came across in what I wrote. I just suspect there are Lightroom users who are not aware of the 1:1 preview role and therefore do not go back and forth between the two modules when it is advantageous. The lag in the Develop module to render the details is annoying and I don't expect this to go away. In fact I'm not that happy about Lightroom working on the next and previous image and cache it. I least for how I work this just slows down my machine and makes the fan go more on my MBP. At least I would wish there was a setting in preferences where I could turn this off.

Ghibby

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 12:08:42 PM »

For me one of the biggest issues is with sharpening the image, you need to be at 100% and panning around an image checking details even when the 1:1 preview is built in the develop module is complete pain in the arse, slow to redraw, fuzzy as the preview catches up the viewing area etc.  Don't even get me started on the issues if you want to do A/B comparison checks on a pair of image to evaluate effects of sharpening, noise reduction and even halos caused in skies by the clarity slider (even at low settings occasionally).  These are all serious flaws that should have been ironed out of what is a mature product now.

While I strongly feel something needs to be done, I cant imagine anything will for a long time yet. We certainly should not be making excuses for Adobe or letting them off the hook for these kind of issues. I mean moving modules just to select images, its a joke! This is basic stuff!  Clearly the comparative lack of competition in this type of software is hampering development of its performance, Adobe have got lazy and happy to just to rake in the profits of those monthly subscriptions.  Innovation and thus these performance issues will continue to plague lightroom until another few companies products outperform it and start to erode sales.

I have said it already in some earlier posts but I really can't wait to have a play with On1 PhotoRAW on its release.  If they deliver what they promise they will then I will certainly give it a long term trial to see if there is a viable alternative to LR for my needs.


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dwswager

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 01:31:47 PM »

Hi All,

Just wondering how the EOS 5Ds and 5Dsr shooters are getting on with Lightroom CC.  Over the last year or so lightroom's glacial speed on these files has been driving me nuts.  I have it all set up to optimum levels for performance, catalogue and RAW cache are on fast SSD's, only the images themselves are on HDD's and even these are fast WD Black drives.  I have tried with GPU support on and off and in all honesty there is no major difference in performance. I have an Nvidia Quadro 4000 card at work and a GTX950 at home. My machine is fairly powerful (32gb Ram, hex core i7 at 3.2Ghz), I have a similar spec at my office and the problems are the same. 

That is slow previews in all modules, especially the 1:1 previes which can take 30sec and longer to generate per image, slow adjustments in develop module and the entire package just feels like its running through treacle.  When I process lower res files up to say 24mp all is fine but by the time you hit 40-50mp files the performance takes a massive step down.  Too much in my opinion.  To me it feels like the whole architecture of the software just can't handle these high res files. 

Be very interested to hear if any of you are experiencing similar issues with high res RAW files.

At the moment I am really hoping that one 1 software will deliver on their promise of super fast raw processing with photo raw when it lands in the autumn! Perhaps it will make Adobe address the woeful performance of lightroom at long last. 

Ben

This is why I haven't given up Br/ACR.  It's not that the previews and things are that much faster, but the interface does not lag as bad while it is generating previews.  There is functionality of Lr I would (and sometimes do) take advantage of, but if I had to do everything in Lr, I would blow my brains out over the productivity hit.

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Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2016, 10:37:18 AM »

For me one of the biggest issues is with sharpening the image, you need to be at 100% and panning around an image checking details even when the 1:1 preview is built in the develop module is complete pain in the arse, slow to redraw, fuzzy as the preview catches up the viewing area etc.  Don't even get me started on the issues if you want to do A/B comparison checks on a pair of image to evaluate effects of sharpening, noise reduction and even halos caused in skies by the clarity slider (even at low settings occasionally).  These are all serious flaws that should have been ironed out of what is a mature product now.

While I strongly feel something needs to be done, I cant imagine anything will for a long time yet. We certainly should not be making excuses for Adobe or letting them off the hook for these kind of issues. I mean moving modules just to select images, its a joke! This is basic stuff!  Clearly the comparative lack of competition in this type of software is hampering development of its performance, Adobe have got lazy and happy to just to rake in the profits of those monthly subscriptions.  Innovation and thus these performance issues will continue to plague lightroom until another few companies products outperform it and start to erode sales.

I have said it already in some earlier posts but I really can't wait to have a play with On1 PhotoRAW on its release.  If they deliver what they promise they will then I will certainly give it a long term trial to see if there is a viable alternative to LR for my needs.

I agree that Adobe should continue to improve Lightroom and some more competition would be good. I have previously posted about the lack of innovation and improvements in Lightroom except for the Develop module and what else comes from the Camera Raw side. But I have to say that in the Library modul with 1:1 previews generated, the performance is smooth on my MBP and zooming in to 1:1 is instant and panning is also smooth and instant in 1:1 there is no redraw lag.  Remember when an image has been edited the 1:1 goes away. I'm sure you know this but I also suspect many others are not aware of the role of the 1:1 previews. In the Develop module there is a lag when reviewing at 1:1 for sharpness and panning across the image. Back when I used windows back in 2009 and changed to the Mac I noticed the Mac was much faster in the Library module despite the Windows hardware was faster than the MacBook Pro dual core at the time. The comparison was on a 30" 2560x1600 display. I have not used Windows since the so can't comment on wether this difference is still there but it sounds like is.

Despite the things I'm not quite happy with and what I think could be improved, there is for me no alternative to Lightroom.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2016, 10:40:54 AM »

This is why I haven't given up Br/ACR.  It's not that the previews and things are that much faster, but the interface does not lag as bad while it is generating previews.  There is functionality of Lr I would (and sometimes do) take advantage of, but if I had to do everything in Lr, I would blow my brains out over the productivity hit.

I avoid using the machine while doing 1:1 preview generation mostly. I generate 1:1 previews during import and do something else until it is completed. That fits my workflow as most of my shooting is on my trips and I import pictures for each shoot which is typically a few hundred files. As mentioned in my previous post I find Lightroom in the Library module fast and not lagging at all on my MacBook Pro.

Ghibby

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2016, 05:22:01 AM »

I have made significant improvements to the performance issues by optimising further and adding a further SSD. 

What I have done is to add a second SSD that only contains LR catalogues & previews as well as the camera raw cache which have set to 32.0GB.  I have also set this disc up as my PS scratch disc as well as the Windows page file location, (with Win 7 and 32.0gb Ram or more the page file is not exactly heavily used assuming you are not running lots of background processes).  The key here is that the operating system & programs are isolated on one disc (also SSD) from the LR Catalogues and camera RAW cache. 

In setting up the additional SSD I also purged the camera raw cache but left all my LR previews alone, I simply moved them to their new disc locations. Also updated my graphic card drivers to the very latest ones.

The performance has been considerably improved with fairly minimal expenditure.  What I am finding on my main system is that in the library module even with a second monitor set to loupe that browsing is much faster than it was previously, in fact I am seeing practically no negative impact on browsing speed on my main monitor (2560x1440) while the second monitor (1920x1200) is displayed, great for checking critical focus.

In develop module the speed switching between images is much faster and I can make all of the major slider adjustments in the basic, details, lens corrections & transform panels with comparatively minimal lag to the display.  There are still issues with the local adjustments and spot heal / clone which as far as I know are not supported by the GPU acceleration in LR as yet, much like the library module

Other performance issues are that I do see a general slow down after about 60mins of use, especially if I don’t switch modules fairly regularly.  Adobe still has a long way to go to improve the overall performance of LR but for now I can live with it a lot more comfortably than just a week ago.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 05:38:59 AM by Ghibby »
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JRSmit

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2016, 11:34:28 AM »

Putting catalog with previews and acr cache on a separate ssd is what I also have done.
Make sure your disks, also the ssd's , keep at least 30% free or thereabout.  Perf drops rapidly if filled more.
Slow down after 60minutes can well be the ssd doing its garbage clean up.  That is why i use the samsumg sm863 (an datacenter drive). Does not have this cliff in the performance.
I also experience sometimes slow response because my HDD have fallen "asleep". Takes several seconds to wake up.
I use windows 10.
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dwswager

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2016, 01:53:44 PM »

Since I use both ACR with Br and LR, I can tell you no amount of hardware can fix the problem.  They can help make Lr less slow than it would be otherwise.  There are 2 issues with Lr performance.  The first is just poor programming.  The second, however, is fundamental to Lr.  Because it's very nature, Lr must do reads and writes on a continuous basis to a structured database.  In Develop, for example, while ACR reads and writes once (after you click done or open), Lr is continuously updating.  This is where lightning fast SSDs help with Lr beyond what they would with ACR.

One performance tip is not to have it write to the sidecar xmp files. The faster way is to turn the catalog writing off and have it only write out once to the XMP file.  Of course, that negates the whole design.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2016, 02:17:09 PM »

One performance tip is not to have it write to the sidecar xmp files. The faster way is to turn the catalog writing off and have it only write out once to the XMP file.  Of course, that negates the whole design.

On the contrary, saving to xmp is almost irrelevant to the design. It's there for data exchange with other apps. Once all xmp is written, performance reverts to normal - if it is at all impacted by writing the xmp (yes, it was once).

« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 02:33:39 PM by john beardsworth »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2016, 03:46:10 PM »

Since I use both ACR with Br and LR, I can tell you no amount of hardware can fix the problem.  They can help make Lr less slow than it would be otherwise.  There are 2 issues with Lr performance.  The first is just poor programming.  The second, however, is fundamental to Lr.  Because it's very nature, Lr must do reads and writes on a continuous basis to a structured database.  In Develop, for example, while ACR reads and writes once (after you click done or open), Lr is continuously updating.  This is where lightning fast SSDs help with Lr beyond what they would with ACR.

One performance tip is not to have it write to the sidecar xmp files. The faster way is to turn the catalog writing off and have it only write out once to the XMP file.  Of course, that negates the whole design.

I don't see much I/O going on while in the Develop module. This module is CPU bound.

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Re: Woeful Lightroom performance with EOS 5Ds
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2016, 06:42:34 PM »

On the contrary, saving to xmp is almost irrelevant to the design. It's there for data exchange with other apps. Once all xmp is written, performance reverts to normal - if it is at all impacted by writing the xmp (yes, it was once).

Agreed however if you are using Lightroom for file management and processing of raw data and Photoshop / Photoshop Elements for further editing there is really no need to write to xmp.

After your editing and other file management options in Lightroom you use the edit in function in Lightroom to send the file to Photoshop (or another photo editing application) for further editing if needed. This function does not require you to write to xmp. Also no other non Adobe application can utilise the Develop Module edits from the xmp file.

To wit there is life without the use of xmp files and this is the main reason that I adopted Lightroom as the application for the processing of my raw files. Since I have been using Lightroom (2007) I have not used xmp files (other than to share with other users or the transfer data after I have returned from an external trip.). My workflow is "simple sweet" the metadata info is in the Lightroom Catalog and I do not have the need to manage xmp files.,     
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