Medium Format Lenses for the DSLR

[Michael Erlewine]

I am still just learning about the various Medium Format lenses. I am sure that some on this forum know this stuff, but here is where I am at and I could use some input.

It seems that these MF lenses (often in Copal 0 format) are very sharp at small apertures (f/16 – f/22). And there are the older-style  lenses and a newer (“Digital”) MF series of lenses that have smaller image circles and work well on the 35mm format that I am used to. So it seems, bokeh is at a priority with these lenses. And so are fast apertures.

If anyone knows, what are the MF lenses that are sharp wide-open as opposed to those that reach their sharpness at smaller apertures? There are so many different MF lenses, versions, and formats that it is hard to get a handle on which ones to consider.

My interest is Tilt/Shift on a bellows system using a DSLR, but I don’t want everything in focus (f/16 – f/22), but would like to see some sharp lenses that are faster. I apologize for my ignorance, but that’s where I am at now. Thanks for any pointers!

[Theodoros]

I am still just learning about the various Medium Format lenses. I am sure that some on this forum know this stuff, but here is where I am at and I could use some input.

It seems that these MF lenses (often in Copal 0 format) are very sharp at small apertures (f/16 – f/22). And there are the older-style  lenses and a newer (“Digital”) MF series of lenses that have smaller image circles and work well on the 35mm format that I am used to. So it seems, bokeh is at a priority with these lenses. And so are fast apertures.

If anyone knows, what are the MF lenses that are sharp wide-open as opposed to those that reach their sharpness at smaller apertures? There are so many different MF lenses, versions, and formats that it is hard to get a handle on which ones to consider.

My interest is Tilt/Shift on a bellows system using a DSLR, but I don’t want everything in focus (f/16 – f/22), but would like to see some sharp lenses that are faster. I apologize for my ignorance, but that’s where I am at now. Thanks for any pointers!

I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for Michael... Copal 0 lenses (Rodenstock, Sneider etc) are usually lenses that are dedicated for use with a tech camera, the term "mf lenses" is not what people usually call them... The term is mostly used for lenses dedicated to various DSLRs that can take MF film or MFDB or have a large digital sensor.

Anyway, if (as I 've understand it) you are asking for Copal 0 lenses of the first kind as above, what you should primarily look for is the mounting distance of the lens and the rear element distance too...

If you are planning to use a DSLR on a view camera, you'll have to choose a lens that is specifed so that the flange distance is more than what your DSLR's sensor to the lens mounting flange on the lens frame when bellows is fully squeezed comes out to be as a distance value... Othewise you won't be able to focus the lens to infinity... After that, you'll have to count that the rear element of the lens chosen, won't hit the rear frame or the camera mount when focused to infinity...

Now as far as DOF is concerned, you shouldn't worry about the aperture values used that much on a camera with movements as you can increase it or diminish it to your likes, by using the tilt and/or swing movements... That's why they are there, shifts are for correcting geometry of objects and tilts/swings are for having (or not) the desired planes in focus....  You can direct your plane of focus as to position it to your likes.

[Michael Erlewine]

I am using these lenses on a bellows technical camera, with a DSLR for a back. If the Copal-type lenses are not MF, what do we call this genre of lenses, so I can get educated?

Could you or others names some of this type of lens by brand and model, lenses that are sharp (and preferably fast) wide open that will work with a 36 Mpx (or perhaps a 50 Mpx) DSLR sensor. I would appreciate it. I am studying, but have a long way to go.

Thanks

[Miyata610]

I am using these lenses on a bellows technical camera, with a DSLR for a back. If the Copal-type lenses are not MF, what do we call this genre of lenses, so I can get educated?

Could you or others names some of this type of lens by brand and model, lenses that are sharp (and preferably fast) wide open that will work with a 36 Mpx (or perhaps a 50 Mpx) DSLR sensor. I would appreciate it. I am studying, but have a long way to go.

Thanks

LF

[Theodoros]

I am using these lenses on a bellows technical camera, with a DSLR for a back. If the Copal-type lenses are not MF, what do we call this genre of lenses, so I can get educated?

Could you or others names some of this type of lens by brand and model, lenses that are sharp (and preferably fast) wide open that will work with a 36 Mpx (or perhaps a 50 Mpx) DSLR sensor. I would appreciate it. I am studying, but have a long way to go.

Thanks

Usually people refer to them as "tech camera" lenses... It is impossible to make suggestions unless one knows exactly all the elements of the equipment you are using (even the thickness of the bellows when squeezed) and then he'll have to refer to the makers tables as to check compatibility... The Sony α7 is so successful because it lacks the mirrorbox of DSLRs and thus one gains more than an inch of flange distance... My recommendation would be for you to check among enlarger lenses (from Rodenstock or Schneider) for the use you describe.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I can just talk about the Hasselblad V-series lenses...

The Sonnars 150/4 and 180/4 are very sharp even fully open.

The Planar 100/3.5 is also very good.

But all those lenses are designed for long distance. For macro, the only choices are the 120/4 macro lens and the corresponding bellows lenses.

All Hasselblad V lenses I used had some axial chroma (magenta/green fringing on OoF areas).

Best regards
Erik

I am using these lenses on a bellows technical camera, with a DSLR for a back. If the Copal-type lenses are not MF, what do we call this genre of lenses, so I can get educated?

Could you or others names some of this type of lens by brand and model, lenses that are sharp (and preferably fast) wide open that will work with a 36 Mpx (or perhaps a 50 Mpx) DSLR sensor. I would appreciate it. I am studying, but have a long way to go.

Thanks

[henrikfoto]

For closer work there is little to choose from. Hasselblad 120 macro is not very good before you step down to f8 or more, Mamiya 120 macro is better and can be ok at f.4, but nothing you would be happy with.
Of all the medium format macros I have tested (all exept the Fuji), the Contax 645 apo macro planar
is the best. Also it has a very long focus throw.

But non of the MF lenses come close to the best LF lenses and the Ultra micro Nikkors and s-orthoplanars
that you know.

Another lens I pulled out of my safe last week with a new adapter for Sony is the Contax Y 200mm
Apo Sonnar f.2,8. Very sharp wide open and a perfekt out of focus rendering.

If you can use a bit more distance, the Phase one 110 LS of 150 LS are very nice wide open!
Supersharp lenses.

[Michael Erlewine]

I agree that the MF lenses I have seen (and owned), while perhaps good for larger sensors, etc., do not boil down to being that interesting for me on the 36 Mpx sensor on my Nikon D810. And yes, the Large-Format lenses, which I have been trying out in Copal 0 format are for small aperture photography. Very few have apertures wider than f/5.6, which means that bokeh is hard to come by. However, they are very sharp and I like that.

Another, and what looks to be a better format is the Large-Format lenses in barrel mount, which at least are available down to f/4, which is just enough wider to isolate the foreground images from the background with some bokeh. Since I tend to stack focus, I use wider apertures to literally paint focus where I want it through successive images.

I am about to test a whole series of LF lenses in barrel format, all at f/4, so I will see what we can do with that.

[Theodoros]

For closer work there is little to choose from. Hasselblad 120 macro is not very good before you step down to f8 or more, Mamiya 120 macro is better and can be ok at f.4, but nothing you would be happy with.
Of all the medium format macros I have tested (all exept the Fuji), the Contax 645 apo macro planar
is the best. Also it has a very long focus throw.

But non of the MF lenses come close to the best LF lenses and the Ultra micro Nikkors and s-orthoplanars
that you know.

Another lens I pulled out of my safe last week with a new adapter for Sony is the Contax Y 200mm
Apo Sonnar f.2,8. Very sharp wide open and a perfekt out of focus rendering.

If you can use a bit more distance, the Phase one 110 LS of 150 LS are very nice wide open!
Supersharp lenses.

Henrik... he is using a D810... there's no way he'll be able to use C645 lenses or P1 lenses on a view camera with the D810 on the rear standard... Let alone the luck of aperture communication interface, he'll only have 17.5mm of available space as to mount the lenses mechanically, he'll have to fit a Nikon camera mount, a rear frame for the camera mount, a bellows and a front frame with C645 lens mount, all within 17.5mm of space.... P1 lenses are even tighter by about 1mm for mounting distance...  I think Michael is rushing himself more than he should in deciding for solutions on what he is after...

I don't see a reason at all for him to use a tech camera just to achieve some bokeh...  Tech cameras aren't made for that... Surely he's much better off if he uses some adapters for MF lenses direct on his D810...

[Michael Erlewine]

I don't see a reason at all for him to use a tech camera just to achieve some bokeh...  Tech cameras aren't made for that... Surely he's much better off if he uses some adapters for MF lenses direct on his D810...

Reasons? Try Tilt, Shift, Rise, Fall. Those, to me, are good reasons.

[Theodoros]

Reasons? Try Tilt, Shift, Rise, Fall. Those, to me, are good reasons.

Michael...., you said earlier that you've used some "LF" lenses on a tech camera with your D810... Can you please state the view camera you are using and which are the lenses that you have owned and used up until now?  As I said before, there is no way one can advise you on the matter unless he knows what has disappoint you up to now and what is the reason behind it...

What really surprises me is that you are asking for even thinner DOF, while with a view camera you can achieve as thin a DOF as you want (and even direct it towards the way you want) as you 'll never be able to achieve if opening the aperture up...  (or the opposite if you want). It seems to me (i might be wrong) that you are thinking of view cameras and lenses with "DSLR terms"... I'm neither sure you fully understand the importance of mechanical compatibility between the elements involved, with respect to what can or can't be done with a view camera...

EDIT: Also, can you state which "whole series of F4 lenses" you'll be testing which are all in "LF barrel format" as I can't understand the later term either...   

[Michael Erlewine]

I am using the following bellows or bellows-based systems: Nikon PB-4, PB-6, Rollei X-Act 2, Novoflex BALPRO Tilt/Shift, and Cambo Actus.

I am using the Nikon D810 as the “back” for these, which is part of this particular equation. As for Depth-of-Field, what I like (if I can get it) is a fast lens that is sharp wide-open, and therefore has a razor-thin Depth-of-Field. THEN, I take the very think DOF and stack it, kind of paint in focus, leaving the rest to go to bokeh. Most Copal-0 based lenses start at around f/5.6, while for what I need is at least f/4, which I can find in the LF lenses in barrel format. And I am in the process of testing a batch of barrel LF lenses.

I don’t know about “thinking of view cameras and lenses with ‘DSLR’ terms,” but I am using a DSLR.

Given this info, please explain an alternate way of solving this bokeh problem, using LF lenses. Thanks.

[Theodoros]

I am using the following bellows or bellows-based systems: Nikon PB-4, PB-6, Rollei X-Act 2, Novoflex BALPRO Tilt/Shift, and Cambo Actus.

I am using the Nikon D810 as the “back” for these, which is part of this particular equation. As for Depth-of-Field, what I like (if I can get it) is a fast lens that is sharp wide-open, and therefore has a razor-thin Depth-of-Field. THEN, I take the very think DOF and stack it, kind of paint in focus, leaving the rest to go to bokeh. Most Copal-0 based lenses start at around f/5.6, while for what I need is at least f/4, which I can find in the LF lenses in barrel format. And I am in the process of testing a batch of barrel LF lenses.

I don’t know about “thinking of view cameras and lenses with ‘DSLR’ terms,” but I am using a DSLR.

Given this info, please explain an alternate way of solving this bokeh problem, using LF lenses. Thanks.

Now hang on a minute... I've owned and used Rollei X-act2 and only sold it two weeks ago (in favour of my new camera)... It can only take the Balpro Nikon mount on it but there's no way that one can make it work (or the Balpro) with Copal 0 lenses and using the Nikon for image area at the same time.... Can you please state which lenses have you used with it as I may be missing something?

EDIT: Also, can you state which "whole series of F4 lenses" you'll be testing which are all in "LF barrel format" as I can't understand the later term either...

[Michael Erlewine]

... Can you please state which lenses have you used with it as I may be missing something?

EDIT: Also, can you state which "whole series of F4 lenses" you'll be testing which are all in "LF barrel format" as I can't understand the later term either...

I mentioned which bellows-based units I have at hand. Currently, I am using the Cambo Actus with some of the following lenses with various plates.

Nikkon AM-ED 120mm
Schneider 120mm f/5.6 Apo Digitar N Lens w
El Nikkor APO 105mm f/5.6

and about to test a series of
Schneider Componon:

40mm f2.8  Apo Componon
45mm f4  Apo Componon
53mm f2.8  El-Nikkor
60mm f4  Apo Digitar/Apo Componon
80mm f4  Apo Digitar/Componon-S   
80mm f4  M Componon
90mm f4.5  Apo Digitar/Apo Componon
90mm f4  Apo-Rodagon

[Michael Erlewine]

I was just planning to buy a Nikon 120 AM ED or the 210.  What fo you think about it?

Very different...using on what camera, etc.?

[henrikfoto]

I use a digital back on a Sinar or a Cambo X2.

[Michael Erlewine]

I use a digital back on a Sinar or a Cambo X2.

I don't know that 210, but that would be an enormous image circle for a DSLR. The 120 works great, is very sharp, etc.

[Theodoros]

I mentioned which bellows-based units I have at hand. Currently, I am using the Cambo Actus with some of the following lenses with various plates.

Nikkon AM-ED 120mm
Schneider 120mm f/5.6 Apo Digitar N Lens w
El Nikkor APO 105mm f/5.6

and about to test a series of
Schneider Componon:

40mm f2.8  Apo Componon
45mm f4  Apo Componon
53mm f2.8  El-Nikkor
60mm f4  Apo Digitar/Apo Componon
80mm f4  Apo Digitar/Componon-S   
80mm f4  M Componon
90mm f4.5  Apo Digitar/Apo Componon
90mm f4  Apo-Rodagon

OK... Now we are getting somewhere...

To start with It's important for you to understand that The XAct-2 & the Balpro you can use with a Nikon (or Canon, or other DSLR) only for (very high magnification) macro work... You'll have to purchase yourself an MFDB as to use the XAct for normal shift/tilt work and then use the recessed bellows for the wider lenses... You can use the X-Act2 or the Balpro for shooting to infinity only if you use the Sony α7 mirrorless with them and then only if you modify the rear standard's mount as to save as much space as you can... (if you want more info on the matter, you may PM me) then, all 6X6 lenses (and larger than 6x6 medium format) on the market will work and most of the 6x4.5 lenses too (but just...)

The Apo digitars 60mm/4 and 80mm/4 M I have listed here... http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=110197.0 if you are interested... (I have revised my whole series of lenses as most of my work is with multishot MFDBs for Art reproduction of paintings and wall paintings and then interior and exterior architecture of monuments).

Now here is what my advise would be... First, I would advise you to change the Nikon for a Sony α7II (preferably the 24mp version IMO) as to use with the Actus... This would give you more than an inch of working distance for working space between the standards, but would increase the lens compatibility considerably too... Other than that, optical performance would increase too as the photons will have a considerably easier path as to "hit" the sensor...

As for lenses, I think you should avoid lenses aimed to work with tech cameras and an MFDB... You should consider those later on when you add an MFDB on your work... I will insist to suggest for you to use enlarging lenses and then retrofocus designs that are aimed to work with mirrorbox DSLRs (of both FF and MF DSLR cameras) but of wider image circle than the one needed on the sensor you use.....  Those would be the MF lenses like the ones mentioned earlier by others (and some more) and then (if you need a wider angle) some wider image circle lenses aimed for FF DSLRs (like the 24mm Tilt shift lenses are...) ...just my two cents out of my "little" ( ) experience on the subject...

Note that the Actus is not a camera aimed for demanding work as its mainly designed to be as portable and easy to carry as possible (limited movements - no shifts in either diection on the front standard, no tilts or swings on the rear standard) aimed for walk around work and the XAct 2 isn't the best camera around as to "keep planes constant" if movements are combined, or for yaw free, or for distortionless operation... IMO (according to my  "little" ( ) experience)

[Michael Erlewine]

OK... Now we are getting somewhere...

I have gotten almost to the same point myself. First, I use the Cambo Actus to shoot outside, because its portable. As for the Rollei X-ACT 2, what would you suggest as the best technical-bellows camera?

[Michael Erlewine]

I just sold my Sony A7R II, because I need more megapixels and I believe Sony and Nikon will produce one, perhaps in the next six months. I can wait for that. Selling the A7R II while it is still worth something.

I am selling by BALPRO, as it is poorly designed for the kind of work I do. I need a moving back standard, etc.

I have all three Nikon PC Tilt/Shift lenses, but they are not corrected (APO) enough for my work.