What used digital back for Mamiya 645 AFD III under £2,000?

[BobShaw]

BobShaw - I have read a few people talk about the Hasselblads being superior to the Mamiyas, I am new to MFD and am curious what kind of difference I would see if I swapped? I picked up my Mamiya AFD III for a relatively good price, so I am sure I could sell it again if need be for the same. Also, can I change the back on the H3DII-31? I like the idea of saving up good money over the next year and investing in a fantastic, newer digital back for my Mamiya, and of occasionally shooting film (although I am sure I can give up the latter opportunity).

It is a while since I used the Mamiya AFD. The Mamiya AFDIII became the Phase One DF I believe. I think there were issues just getting a compatible back at the right price. Compatible seemed to be a fluid word depending on who you asked. You need to speak with a Phase dealer. The back on the H3D can be removed. It is modular like the Mamiya, so you can use the back on a view camera say. As for actually changing backs then that is more difficult as they are matched. It can be done by the factory at a cost. You usually just sell the both and buy a newer one. All lenses etc are compatible. Film only goes to H3DI or the H4x series.

[joshcomley]

Hi everybody,

Thank you all for your kind advice and apologies for my delay in responding.

Lots of information to ingest here, and a special thanks to Synn for the wonderfully put together details on compatibility.

I bought my Mamiya 645 AFD III based on the belief that it provided the best balance of lens/back compatibility for the price (I got the body with an 80mm lens for £500), but then it seems I would need to buy a back that really lacked any future proof should I upgrade to a Phase One XF system in a few years, but as Synn pointed out, if I do this, and can afford it, I would likely care little about losing some money on the resale value of my old 645 AFD compatible digital back.

I also have an RZ67 Pro II to which I am very new but have done some shooting with, with some very pleasing results so far (for me at least; a baby amateur by a lot of your standards!). I was hoping some level of compatibility between what I buy for the RZ67 Pro II and what I buy for the 645 AFD III, but it looks like that may have been a mistake; if anything I can get an H adapter for my RZ67 Pro II, potentially buy a Hasselblad H2 and be able to share my back between the two bodies, and if I upgrade later to an H4X I think would still work on that, if I would be unable to afford to upgrade back and body at the same time.

I haven't really looked in any depth into the lenses for Hasselblad yet to see the price difference people talk of, but I have read a number of reviews of various newer(ish) Phase One and Hasselblad systems and it does look like both are extremely capable systems that would be limited for some good years by my own ability as a photographer more than their own quality as systems.

@leeonmaui, that is a great price on the Pentax 645D, thank you for the link! But it is body mated and I definitely want to maintain a modular system for now.

One thing seems clear: I have probably bought the wrong body. Then again, if I can find a cheap enough back to go with it, I can begin collecting some Phase One lenses that will work down the line on future bodies and don't need to worry too much about the resale value of the (relatively) cheap starter equipment.

I've written all this and still feel confused 

[razrblck]

I think a good solution would be to call a dealer and get an offer on back+body so you will be sure that it works, and use the AFDIII in the exchange to get a discount.

Start from there and then find a suitable RZ67 adapter. Keep in mind that anything you buy now for your budget will be worth a lot less by the time you upgrade, so don't think about resale value but features you need right now. If you buy something you can shoot for a couple of years, it will be money well spent even if you make nothing back (can always keep it as backup).

[joshcomley]

I think a good solution would be to call a dealer and get an offer on back+body so you will be sure that it works, and use the AFDIII in the exchange to get a discount.

Start from there and then find a suitable RZ67 adapter. Keep in mind that anything you buy now for your budget will be worth a lot less by the time you upgrade, so don't think about resale value but features you need right now. If you buy something you can shoot for a couple of years, it will be money well spent even if you make nothing back (can always keep it as backup).

That's not a bad idea, thank you. My body *just* arrived in the post.. I was excited about getting it, I suppose now it looks like I might be selling it!

[yaya]

That's not a bad idea, thank you. My body *just* arrived in the post.. I was excited about getting it, I suppose now it looks like I might be selling it!

Just find a back for it and start shooting...you'll have an easier time finding decent lightweight lenses for it that mostly do not require any service (no shutters). Both back and body will have some value in them if & when you move up and an M back is easier to find and easier to mate to other platforms e.g RZ...

Good luck

Yair

[dcfoto]

Regarding the body: newer bodies certainly are more capable, but the image quality is determined by the back, not by the body. You can do great stuff with your AFDIII and a decent back. A weak point of your body is auto-focus, which somewhat constrains the use (I wouldn't shoot sports with it), but for most use cases, the compromise is actually not that bad. If you're getting into medium format for resolution, dynamic range etc. with a low budget, then it's probably better spent on a back. I agree that you should start to get shooting (you can still upgrade later). I am currently shooting with a 645DF+. Of course I'd love to own the XF body... I tested it for a week and it's awesome. But considering the amount of money I would have to spend, my DF+ is still fine. I'll wait.

I have a PhaseOne P40+ for sale, which I purchased directly from PhaseOne in October 2012. I'm selling it because I recently upgraded to an IQ250. The price I have in mind for the P40+ is more like 3000 GBP, so I understand if this is irrelevant for you. If interested though, send me a PM. I'm based in Berlin.

[joshcomley]

Regarding the body: newer bodies certainly are more capable, but the image quality is determined by the back, not by the body. You can do great stuff with your AFDIII and a decent back. A weak point of your body is auto-focus, which somewhat constrains the use (I wouldn't shoot sports with it), but for most use cases, the compromise is actually not that bad. If you're getting into medium format for resolution, dynamic range etc. with a low budget, then it's probably better spent on a back. I agree that you should start to get shooting (you can still upgrade later). I am currently shooting with a 645DF+. Of course I'd love to own the XF body... I tested it for a week and it's awesome. But considering the amount of money I would have to spend, my DF+ is still fine. I'll wait.

I have a PhaseOne P40+ for sale, which I purchased directly from PhaseOne in October 2012. I'm selling it because I recently upgraded to an IQ250. The price I have in mind for the P40+ is more like 3000 GBP, so I understand if this is irrelevant for you. If interested though, send me a PM. I'm based in Berlin.

I actually am based in Berlin, too, except I am spending a few weeks in the UK Gotta love that city; so much to photograph!

There is a P20 on eBay right now, at £509 in auction ending in a few hours, so it'll probably go for around £600. My problem with buying that is that the sensor size is the smallest MF sensor there is, with a crop factor of 1.5x, so I'd be spending £600 on making my MF only just a tad better than a 35mm digital sensor.

Your P40+ sounds lovely, but as you say it's out of my price range

I think patience is the winner in this game now. I think I'll keep my body and wait for a P25/P25+ to poach for around £1000 somewhere.

[Theodoros]

I actually am based in Berlin, too, except I am spending a few weeks in the UK Gotta love that city; so much to photograph!

There is a P20 on eBay right now, at £509 in auction ending in a few hours, so it'll probably go for around £600. My problem with buying that is that the sensor size is the smallest MF sensor there is, with a crop factor of 1.5x, so I'd be spending £600 on making my MF only just a tad better than a 35mm digital sensor.

Your P40+ sounds lovely, but as you say it's out of my price range

I think patience is the winner in this game now. I think I'll keep my body and wait for a P25/P25+ to poach for around £1000 somewhere.

Clearly P25 is the best solution one may have if you decide to stick with the AFD III... IMO, all 22mp 37x49mm Kodak sensor backs out of all makers that made them, have a unique "look" in their image that many find unsurpassed even today (the now famous "fat pixel magic). Unfortunately, the rest of the makers backs work only on the AFD and not on the later Mamiya II & III or the DF versions... So with the AFD one is restricted to the P25 only out of all makers... Some people aren't aware about the compatibility of later than AFD II Mamiya with backs and think that if a back is of M645 fit, it is compatible with them... It is the case with AFD, but not with the versions that replaced it.

[joshcomley]

Clearly P25 is the best solution one may have if you decide to stick with the AFD III... IMO, all 22mp 37x49mm Kodak sensor backs out of all makers that made them, have a unique "look" in their image that many find unsurpassed even today (the now famous "fat pixel magic). Unfortunately, the rest of the makers backs work only on the AFD and not on the later Mamiya II & III or the DF versions... So with the AFD one is restricted to the P25 only out of all makers... Some people aren't aware about the compatibility of later than AFD II Mamiya with backs and think that if a back is of M645 fit, it is compatible with them... It is the case with AFD, but not with the versions that replaced it.

Hi Theodoros, yes, you are absolutely right. I did read up on the AFD III and my readings implied that its advantage was compatibility, hence I bought it. But as I've discovered, it's limited. I think I'll try to get a P25/P25+ and enjoy shooting with it for a year, get used to MF and then consider selling the body and back at a loss and keeping the lenses.

[Theodoros]

Hi Theodoros, yes, you are absolutely right. I did read up on the AFD III and my readings implied that its advantage was compatibility, hence I bought it. But as I've discovered, it's limited. I think I'll try to get a P25/P25+ and enjoy shooting with it for a year, get used to MF and then consider selling the body and back at a loss and keeping the lenses.

its really pity... The best of multishot backs, of which their image result for stills will easily surpass by much any modern 100mp Cmos back, are of 22mp when used in 16x mode for a "true colour" 88mp completely free of artifacts file... These backs are sold "for peanut" prices these days and one will be shocked out of the result if he uses it for stills at its full potential 16x mode, they are also usable at 22mp single shot mode but with further improvement in image quality over their "single shot only"  counterparts because the sensors used on them where hand selected to be the best out of production... They can be used on Mamiya AFD and even need no exterior cable as to sync with it... Additionally the AFD can lock the mirror up as to maximize the performance out of them if they are used in multishot mode for the whole process time... It may would be a good idea if you would look to trade the body only for an older AFD instead and use one of these backs (I would recommend the Imacon 528c or the Hasselblad 22MS)...  If there is a possibility for you to advance your tasks in the future as to include shooting "true color" multishot captures, I'm sure you won't regret changing to an older AFD... P1 or Leaf are not expected to ever release a multishot back....

EDIT: Actually P1 is not expected to release any back to support DF and earlier than that models anymore... (let alone multishot).

[yaya]

Josh to make things straight, simple and clear for you; your AFDIII works with any M-mount Phase One P and P+ back and with any M-mount Leaf Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II back.
It also works with several 3rd party backs e.g. Eyelike/Sinar eMotion and Hasselblad CF, providing that they come with an M interface plate.

Looking forward to seeing some of your work after you've found what you're after.

BR
Yair

[Theodoros]

Josh to make things straight, simple and clear for you; your AFDIII works with any M-mount Phase One P and P+ back and with any M-mount Leaf Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II back.
It also works with several 3rd party backs e.g. Eyelike/Sinar eMotion and Hasselblad CF, providing that they come with an M interface plate.

Looking forward to seeing some of your work after you've found what you're after.

BR
Yair

Hi Yair...

I'm pretty sure my ex Imacon 528c worked perfectly well with AFD, but not with AFD II because Mamiya changed the interface compatibility... I know as I've tried it myself... The fact that I prefered the Contax platform is a personal matter... Was that altered with the AFD III? Can the AFD III and later DF bodies do multishot captures with multishot able backs from Sinar or Imacon/Hasselblad?  Please inform us on the matter as it is of importance for some of us...

[eronald]

Josh to make things straight, simple and clear for you; your AFDIII works with any M-mount Phase One P and P+ back and with any M-mount Leaf Aptus, Aptus S and Aptus-II back.
It also works with several 3rd party backs e.g. Eyelike/Sinar eMotion and Hasselblad CF, providing that they come with an M interface plate.

Looking forward to seeing some of your work after you've found what you're after.

BR
Yair

Dear Yair,

 You don't know whether his AFDIII works fine, you know that it *should* work fine.

Edmund

[sbernthal]

Very late, but I'll give you my view:

Mamiya is a much better compatability system than Hasselblad.
The early bodies are not very good, the comparable Hasselblad bodies are better.
The new XF body is better than Hasselblad, but quite expensive.
Still, it's a pretty good way to start with AFD compatability and work your way up inside that system.

Do note that due to the much lower demand for Hasselblad, you will find much better deals on Hasselblad older backs and bodies.
eBay is always rife with every old model of Hasselblad back you could want, for pennies.
Note also that Hasselblad are not great supporting older backs and bodies. P1 is much better at that.

I would suggest that you consider the even older P20/P21 backs.
For a hobbyist they are great, and certainly a great way to start.
A little bit lower resolution but decent enough. I keep one as a backup and it works fine.
With the new software and firmware they produce very good results and are dirt cheap, so no need to break the bank.

If you have any interest to shoot tethered on location I would stay away from Aptus as their powering solution is not very good.
Untethered or tethered in studio is quite good. Aptus suppot is not as good as P1 support since the user base is much smaller the same date back will go out of support much sooner. In fact I don't know a P1 back that went out of supprt yet, but all Aptus I line (not Aptus II), which is not that old, is already out. Out of support means once broken, you can throw it away.

Pentax is great if that is your final stop, but it doesn't offer you a path into the serious stuff. Pentax doesn't allow you to process with C1, which for me is a disqualifier.

[joshcomley]

Thank you everybody here again, apologies for very slow replying.

sbernthal, thank you for the great summary, too. This actually helped me make a decision last night; I was about to put an offer in on a slightly over-my-budget Leaf Aptus 75 with 40k actuations, but it concerned me that it was coming both not from an official vendor/reseller, from the USA to the UK, and if I had any trouble your point about Leaf products lacking support meant that if anything did go wrong with it I'd be severely out of cash with a digital brick not a digital back. Of course I don't expect any warranty left on these things, but as far as I can tell if something goes wrong with a Phase One product I can send it in and pay for a refurbishment to be done on it, which although might cost a sweet penny, would surely (?) be cheaper than buying a new back altogether.

Yair, thanks again, I checked out the vendors you linked to and their prices are above my budget compared to what I have seen possible on eBay or gumtree/craigslist. Of course I have no support/refund usually with purchases from such places as compared to the vendors, but if I go with Phase One at least I can pay to get it fixed if something does go wrong.

I so far cannot test whether my AFD III works at all as I have no back for it, not even film, but I don't want to rush into a situation where should something go wrong I have no room for movement.

Can other people confirm this is the case between Leaf/P1?

[sbernthal]

I will confirm that if you buy an Aptus 75 and it breaks, then Phase One will not fix it for you.
That is their official statement.
Whether they will agree to make a special exception for you, I have no idea.
I would not buy a back that is out of support or about to be out of support.
You could try your luck at an independent lab, but I believe very few labs around the world understand these backs.
Also, even if you do find one by some miracle, they still need the repacement part, and I believe it will not be possible to find most of them for the out of support backs.

On the other side, a Phase One back fix will run you normally $2500 - so if you pay for the back not much more than that, it means not much difference between back in or out of support.

Number of actulations means very little IMO.
You want to see if the back seems beat up or well cared for.

Possible problems with these backs:
External interfaces - comm and power.
Scratched CCD or broken LCD.
That's most of it.
P1 backs are more resilient.

[sbernthal]

BTW I didn't say there's a problem with Leaf support, only with the support of the first line of Aptus.
Aptus II are still supported, and I expect for a few more years.
Credo I would estimate will be supported for a very long time.