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Author Topic: And so it continues....  (Read 59463 times)

RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #280 on: July 28, 2016, 01:32:59 pm »

OK, thanks Russ. Thanks for pointing out the mistake; "we" in my earlier post needs to be "I". However you didn't say why you always choose the "other extreme" as I call it. I  think it's a bad debating technique if you want to achieve some common understanding, and I'll explain what I mean by that below. 
Your position is everybody should be free to arm himself so one can defend oneself in case a bad guy comes at you with a truck/knife/gun/bomb/ etc. However I don't agree with that (I think this cure is worse then the ailment) and then your response is what I call blaming me for the "other extreme" position i.e that you suggest that the only thing that can happen short of arming all civilians is surrender, throw up your arms and get killed. However I never said that, so it's pure speculation from your side.
What I mean by middle ground is that during events like these there should be sufficient trained armed guards/policemen available spread out over the area to neutralize a killer, they set up road blocks (as they should have done in Nice) so a truck/car can't enter a pedestrian zone and take other diligent anti-terrorism measures. So no, I won't throw up my arms, surrender and get killed, if security forces are around I expect they will get this guy before he gets me. I know it ain't perfect and they can't be everywhere at once, but even with good guy gun carriers around in the US still innocent people get killed, so that system ain't perfect either. Which scenario will play out better is depending on the specific circumstances at the event, but I don't think one is fundamentally different in effectiveness vs. the other.
You'll probably disagree and that's fine, but my main point is that there's a lot of possibilities between plenty armed civilians versus desperately surrendering because of lack of options. So when you don't agree with someone else's position don't ridicule it to the extreme, since that's usually not what the other person had in mind.

Hi Pieter, No, I don't just think everybody should be free to arm himself. I think that along with the gun goes a responsibility to learn to use it wisely. I think I've mentioned this before, but my grandfather gave me my first rifle when I was twelve. He made me understand that I should never point that gun at anyone unless I intended to kill him. He also trained me to use it responsibly.

But in the end, I think every individual has a God-given right to defend himself. That used to mean learning to fight with fists or with knives or with lances or with battle axes. But the danger has escalated, and to defend yourself properly you need to keep up with the times. That means it doesn't pay to bring a fist or a knife or a lance or a battle axe to a gunfight. As I said earlier, any bad guy can get a gun. I don't care where in the world he is, he can do that. Why should I be prevented from having access to a reasonable defense. And yes, the only reasonable alternative is to throw up your hands and surrender, hoping the guy will spare you. These people won't. So I want access to a gun.

Sure, there's always a chance that in the melee you'll be hit by a stray shot from some clutz who doesn't know what he's doing. But that average is better than being surely gunned down by the guy who's trying to kill you.

Yes, it's nice to think that there always should be armed guards to neutralize a killer, but that simply isn't always possible. Why would the cops have been there in force during the truck murders? Who'd have thought a truck would be used for that purpose? You can't always have somebody hanging over you to defend you. In the end, you're responsible for your own defense and for the defense of your family. I take that responsibility pretty seriously. Do you?

Sorry I seemed to ridicule you. Unfortunately the standard European attitude toward weapons and self-defense lends itself to ridicule.
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Zorki5

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #281 on: July 28, 2016, 01:38:21 pm »

An immortal quote, from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

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Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

Can the same be said about internet forums, I wonder...
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #282 on: July 28, 2016, 02:40:21 pm »

Source?...

The one you provided.

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... Maybe not the best of neighborhoods, don't know, but gang-related (or is that a premature assumption based on the neighborhood and that some involved were linked to belonging to a gang, same gang, different gangs)? Black-on-black, I wouldn't know, Illegal guns, dunno, can't guns be had legally in the USA?

If you do a bit of soul searching, aren't you presuming a bit too much instead of basing judgements/qualifications on facts (I couldn't find any, maybe you can?), and thereby risk stereotyping parts of the population?

The benefit of living here is that I do know what kind of neighborhood Back of the Yards is and who lives there.

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A group of around 100 people gathered...to celebrate the life of a man who was killed in a gang shooting in 2012....Police said Childs and the 25-year-old woman were documented gang members...

Childs is the guy who started the shooting and ended up dead, btw.

Yes, guns can be had legally in the US. Given that between 89% and 97% of all gun crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns, my assumption is on a pretty solid statistical ground. Besides, which criminal or gang member worth its salt is going to use a legal gun traceable back to him?

« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 03:22:04 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #283 on: July 28, 2016, 02:55:57 pm »

I have read arguments on both sides of the debate here.  I completely disagree with both Slobodan and Russ on most points, however both have made some interesting comments.  I particularly liked Slobodan's paragraph a while ago about the culture of the US and that it is not possible to just pick bits of other cultures and make a Frankinstein (or similar).

Giving everyone a gun is not going to stop terrorists and to think so is fantasy.  Particularly as the terrorists are prepared to die, and not many of their targets are.

Fact is there is no easy answer.  The gun lobby will always find a reason why they need to keep their guns.  I can only say that to live in a place where everyone is armed would be my nightmare scenario.  Will it happen?  Maybe.  I hope not.

Russ and Slobodan - I think you're wrong, but I can see your points of view.

Jim
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #284 on: July 28, 2016, 03:03:45 pm »

Particularly as the terrorists are prepared to die. . .

Exactly, Jim. You've got the picture. And the name of the game is to make sure they do before you do.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #285 on: July 28, 2016, 03:19:08 pm »

Jim, I appreciate your input. I agree there are no easy answers.

I do not own a gun, do not advocate giving everyone one, or mandating teachers to carry it. I do however, understand that there are people who want to have (or keep) one, including teachers, and I understand their rationale.

I posted (twice) examples of good guys stopping an attack (those examples contain names, dates, and locations, so easy to verify). No, it is not going to stop terrorists or lunatics from launching an attack, nor it guarantees zero casualties. There will be innocent killed in the cross-fire, but the overall level of casualties has been significantly lower so far.

I wish we would live in a gun-free world. But unless we all start riding unicorns, it is just a wish. The reality is harsh, and every nation tries to find an answer for itself, based on its history and culture. Most Americans have it in their genes that it is their own responsibility to protect themselves. That does not mean a negation of the government's role in providing safety for its citizens.

I think that those advocating confiscation of guns are wrong.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #286 on: July 28, 2016, 03:23:32 pm »

The benefit of living here is that I do know what kind of neighborhood Back of the Yards is and who lives there.

Yes, I figured that you (coming from Chicago) would know something about that particular neighborhood, but you do not know the details of what happened either.

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Childs is the guy who started the shooting and ended up dead, btw.

According to 'a source'. Was that an independent source, or related to the girls? You and I do not know.

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Yes, guns can be had legally in the US. Given that between 89% and 93% of all gun crimes are committed with ILLEGAL guns, my assumption is on a pretty solid statistical ground. Besides, which criminal and gang member worth its salt is going to use a legal gun traceable back to him?

So statistically that would be a high probability, but not a certainty. Then why present it as a fact?

You know, a while back we had a person in the Netherlands who was convicted to a lifelong imprisonment for a charge of multiple murders, also based on the statistical likelihood that she was the cause of the 7 hospital deaths and 3 attempted deaths (reanimations). After 5 years the case was reopened and 2 years later she was released due to miscarriage of justice. I'd be very careful with blindly following statistics. You and I have enough experience (even in the same Corporation) with statistics to know how they can be (ab)used, and how not to use them if one is objective.

It should be the case that a suspect is assumed to be not guilty, until he/she is proven guilty. I see little of that in these presumptions.

I sense a kind of fatalism that 'it is as it is', and therefore no effort is made to look at ways to prevent these things from happening. Not easy, I know, but still. The standard reaction is, more guns. And because more guns kill and/or hurt more people, it makes no sense, unless one has given up.

I haven't looked at the latest crime statistics, but isn't the crime rate falling in the USA (or is that due to a different method of reporting)? If so, does one actually understand why that is? Seems pretty useful info, maybe something can be learned?

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 06:58:08 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #287 on: July 28, 2016, 03:45:44 pm »

Yes, it's nice to think that there always should be armed guards to neutralize a killer, but that simply isn't always possible. Why would the cops have been there in force during the truck murders? Who'd have thought a truck would be used for that purpose? You can't always have somebody hanging over you to defend you. In the end, you're responsible for your own defense and for the defense of your family. I take that responsibility pretty seriously. Do you?
Russ, thanks for the answer. I think on most of it we'll have to agree to disagree. Nothing personal from my side, just different backgrounds and experiences in life.
But on the above paragraph there's a few points I would like to point out. I think in Nice the police and security dropped the ball. They mainly flocked together in a large group rather then spreading out in teams of two and they failed to set up a decent road block so trucks could not easily enter the pedestrian area, despite the fact that this scenario (crook driving a truck to kill people) is a standard scenario that is tested (and countermeasures taken) for many mass events in Belgium and the Netherlands. So for me Nice is an example how it should not have been done if I would be in charge of security over there. If you spend the money and resources on protection you have the duty to employ them as efficient as possible and not let your guard down because "it's unlikely something will happen".
Second point, I also take my safety and safety of my family very serious, but I focus my attention on matters that have a much higher chance of happening then a terrorist attack. Safe driving, safe cars, home fire protection, working at heights and ladder safety, electricity etc. etc. All these items have orders of magnitude higher mortality rate (if it goes wrong) then a terrorist or homicide attack so that's where I get the biggest bang for the buck in being prudent and safety conscious and taking all reasonable counter measures to ensure me and my family don't get hit. For protection against terrorist attacks I rely on the public services trained and employed to do so. Despite what a lot of politicians and populists are trying to tell us, statistically the chance of getting hit by a homicide or terrorist attack is very low (where I live), I think the amount of spreading fear and doom is out of proportion with the actual issue. 
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pieter, aka pegelli

RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #288 on: July 28, 2016, 04:24:48 pm »

I think we can agree on a lot of things, Pieter. In fact, I can't find anything to disagree with in this post.

And I probably need to tell you that even though I owned rifles, shotguns, pistols, hand-loaded for all of them, cast bullets for a few, and though at 14 I (briefly) was Michigan junior smallbore champion, and was (voluntary) captain of the pistol team at Richards-Gebaur Air Force base, I haven't owned or handled a gun since I came back from Vietnam in 1965.

But that doesn't mean I'm not concerned about what I see happening. Someone I read recently pointed out that though the Bible describes some pretty horrendously violent happenings, it doesn't prescribe them. On the other hand, the Koran, which I read a couple decades ago does prescribe violence against unbelievers. There are those who claim that attacks by Muslims are carried out by people who are outside the mainstream of Muslim belief, but that simply isn't so.

The fact that Europe, and to some extent the U.S., is voluntarily accepting an invasion of people who don't understand Western values, want to live under Sharia law, and include people who intend to follow the dictates of their religion to the death, scares the hell out of me. What do you do when you face a mass of people, most of whom aren't killers, but who agree with or even urge on the killers amongst them? Eventually you have to deal with the problem or watch your civilization collapse. I'm not willing to let that happen, and if necessary I'll go back to being armed to prevent it. Waiting for the cops doesn't get the job done. It would be nice if it did.
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Hulyss

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #289 on: July 28, 2016, 06:50:05 pm »

I'm digging into dnc cash sheet and it's pretty interesting.

https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails//fileid/1619/828
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BradSmith

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #290 on: July 28, 2016, 07:22:13 pm »

I'm digging into dnc cash sheet and it's pretty interesting.

https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails//fileid/1619/828
Suggestion - How about making this a new topic?

And then in that new topic, you might give a hint of what you find interesting.
Brad
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #291 on: July 29, 2016, 09:47:48 am »

But that doesn't mean I'm not concerned about what I see happening. Someone I read recently pointed out that though the Bible describes some pretty horrendously violent happenings, it doesn't prescribe them. On the other hand, the Koran, which I read a couple decades ago does prescribe violence against unbelievers. There are those who claim that attacks by Muslims are carried out by people who are outside the mainstream of Muslim belief, but that simply isn't so.

Hi Russ,

The concerns about spreading violence are universal. Religions (of almost any variety, even some Buddhists) and other extremely dogmatic convictions have historically been a source of intolerance and resulting violence. That violence is usually a sign of weakness, since verbal persuasion, or compromise) is apparently not considered as feasible. Sometimes it is used as a tool to get people to unite, by creating an outside threat (e.g. Inquisition, witch-hunts, WMD, foreigners, etc.). So people either get hung up about dogmatic believes or they are played by others.

Sometimes there is an actual threat that people can agree about, and that's when (both preventative and curative) action is warranted. Also when one of the earlier mentioned groups are disrupting to the functioning of society as a whole, one can use lawful means (e.g. Law enforcement officers, judges/courts) to correct such behavior.

The problems that we are discussing though, are mostly caused by those who do not play by the book.

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The fact that Europe, and to some extent the U.S., is voluntarily accepting an invasion of people who don't understand Western values, want to live under Sharia law, and include people who intend to follow the dictates of their religion to the death, scares the hell out of me.

That would scare me as well, but most of those folks do not pose a threat, because they are simply trying to flee from certain death in their homelands. They are humanitarian casualties, refugees, if they even make it alive across dangerous seas in crummy vessels.

Then there is a small number of bad guys/gals, a few rotten apples in a basket full of good ones. But let's not make that potential threat larger than it is, because many terrorists are home grown/radicalized. One should ask why they are so susceptible for some the hate-speech that is preached by populists and/or extremists.

Again, their tool of violence is a sign of weakness. So to prevent it, we'd have to understand it first and then address it efficiently (i.e. not adding more fuel to the fire, but still effectively).

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What do you do when you face a mass of people, most of whom aren't killers, but who agree with or even urge on the killers amongst them? Eventually you have to deal with the problem or watch your civilization collapse.

Since we agree that is not what we want, we must understand what it is they agree with (maybe they don't agree with everything), and perhaps lead by example and show them that they perhaps are wrong in their social/religious pre-programming concepts, and maybe we can get a bit less uptight about some of our own hang-ups. We do not even necessarily (especially within one generation) need to fully integrate, we can agree to co-exist while upholding the Nation's laws (e.g. non-discrimination). In fact, cultural diversity can be a blessing, look at the USA, most inhabitants have non-native (e.g. Indian) ancestral lineage.

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I'm not willing to let that happen, and if necessary I'll go back to being armed to prevent it. Waiting for the cops doesn't get the job done. It would be nice if it did.

One of the reasons that I have trouble with such (knee-jerk more guns 'solution') reactions is that it is not a solution, it's a last resort at best. I think that there are many things that can be done before we only have that left.

Another reason why I have difficulty with a 'solution' that brings it's own set of drawbacks, is that I come from a society that somewhat proves (so it's not just theory) that there are alternative possible.

Today the crime statistics for the year 2015 in the Netherlands were published. We scored the lowest annual number of man-slaughters/homicides  in 20 years, while the population has grown (dis-proportionally due to net immigration compensating for low birth rates) from 15,493,889 to 16,980,049. The crime statistics even include non-Dutch residents, e.g. refugees and tourists, so its the total or all crime recorded within the borders.

An analysis of those 120 victims shows that those from foreign origin represent the largest number from that group. And of those, the largest number of victims is due to (illegal) gun violence amongst non-westerners (often from the (former Dutch) Antilles, Morocco and Turkey). The still sad total came to 120 people on a population of almost 17 million people.

So despite the influx of foreigners, many of them refugees, 'locals' have relatively little to fear.

I'm not saying that will remain so forever, because we also know (as was confirmed by an analysis of the FBI) that defeating ISIS in their middle-East home-turf will generate more asymmetrical warfare in the form of terrorism elsewhere, which is a sign of weakness, but still not something we'd like to have more of.

So what should be done, is not pile up more guns (and gun accidents), but improve the capabilities of Law enforcement and Security services, but without stretching the legal boundaries beyond the legal limits. And even stretching those limits should not be an automatism, because that would ultimately lead to a society that is no longer free (which is also one of the Terrorist goals, have the system turning on its own citizens, and then collapse). We also need to make better use of what we call field-coaches, people from the communities that work with the communities to spot the bad apples, and attempt to cure the things that are wrong before they spiral out of control.

I'm sure we in the Netherlands are going to get hit by a terrorist attack someday. But I'm also sure that it is partly unavoidable (despite our trying to prevent it), and until it happens we live a happy life, not behind walls and crouched in a corner clutching a gun.

I wish the same happiness to others.

Cheers,
Bart
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #292 on: July 29, 2016, 10:02:44 am »

Bart, all I can say is that your naivety exceeds anything I've experienced until now. Have you ever read the Koran?

At this point I'm going to drop out of this thread. It's hopeless, and, unfortunately, useless.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #293 on: July 29, 2016, 10:40:34 am »

Bart, all I can say is that your naivety exceeds anything I've experienced until now. Have you ever read the Koran?

My Arabic language abilities are nothing to boast about, so I've read translated parts of it (which already loses some of the intent depending on the translation) yes, and also the Bible (e.g. Old Testament, if taken literally, and out of the context of time) is not an example of how we (should) deal with each other today, in civilized/modern societies. Dogmas start where people stop to think.

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At this point I'm going to drop out of this thread. It's hopeless, and, unfortunately, useless.

If you've given up, then maybe only guns will be the last resort. Hope you stay safe though, because Yesterday (July 28th), there were another 3 (out of some 211 to date) mass shooting incidents in the USA, Baltimore Maryland, Chicago Illinois (already mentioned), and Elmira New York, adding 2 killed and 11 injured to this years saddening totals. I would not find that acceptable to continue happening at such a scale ...

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:44:53 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Rob C

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #294 on: July 29, 2016, 11:17:22 am »

My Arabic language abilities are nothing to boast about, so I've read translated parts of it (which already loses some of the intent depending on the translation) yes, and also the Bible (e.g. Old Testament, if taken literally, and out of the context of time) is not an example of how we (should) deal with each other today, in civilized/modern societies. Dogmas start where people stop to think.

Cheers,
Bart


But don't you see, Bart, that that's the entire point of it: getting back to primitive times and mores? When people buy into that religious concept by the millions, as they do, your idea of common sense cool and fraternity is meaningless: a one-sided pipe dream.

Rob

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #295 on: July 29, 2016, 11:39:08 am »


But don't you see, Bart, that that's the entire point of it: getting back to primitive times and mores? When people buy into that religious concept by the millions, as they do, your idea of common sense cool and fraternity is meaningless: a one-sided pipe dream.

Hi Rob,

That would be the case if those who really believe those things literally (across all religions), were to invade one's home country, and no preventative measures were taken. For the moment most of them are killing each other, because they prefer the 'wrong' version of a specific religion. Don't forget there are also hordes in 'the west' who believe the earth is only several thousand years old, to name only one aspect (who knows what else they believe they need to do), based on their scripture, ignoring scientific evidence.

But I do stay alert (yet not paranoid), and monitor the developments. And yes, there are things happening that I (and many of my countrymen) do not like, so we deal with them (but not by creating another monster of Frankenstein), and we learn as we go.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:46:55 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #296 on: July 29, 2016, 11:57:40 am »

...lead by example and show them that they perhaps are wrong in their social/religious pre-programming concepts...

We've been leading by example the last 1000+ years. The trouble is, they do not like our example, as they see it as incompatible with their medieval mindset. But despair not, perhaps another thousand years and they'll get there?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #297 on: July 29, 2016, 12:07:21 pm »

This is how a true good-guy American fights a bad guy with a gun: :)

A bad guy in a car wash attempts carjacking with a gun pointing at the car owner... the good guy, with no gun, just a pair of balls of steel and a... pressure washer, fights back.

Or he could have surrendered his keys and wallet and let them drive the car away, with his disabled war-veteran brother inside, with a chance of finding him dead further down the road (already happened multiple times).

The rest of the story and the whole video of the incident here.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #298 on: July 29, 2016, 12:21:57 pm »

We've been leading by example the last 1000+ years.

Well, the examples were not all that pretty (even more recent ones), but who's perfect anyway.

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The trouble is, they do not like our example, as they see it as incompatible with their medieval mindset. But despair not, perhaps another thousand years and they'll get there?

Yes, that's one issue if we were to focus on religion, or the lack of separation between religion and ideology. I'm always (only a bit) amazed by the public protest against the Western values in those countries and all of the sudden it seems like everybody has foreign flags to burn. Of course that would only be a real surprise if one didn't understand that these things get organized from the top down, and people get paid to come and protest.

In that light, it's also a bit hard to digest that some of the Arab countries (and sponsors of several terrorist factions) do almost nothing to aid their brethren in faith, who are fleeing Syria to avoid getting massacred. I saw a short street interview with man in Kuwait, who answered when asked why they didn't provide save harbor for the humanitarian refugees; "Kuwait is too expensive for them, they couldn't afford it." ...  Actions speak louder than words.

The deluge of refugees (and some terrorists) is mostly a result of geo-politics, and there are very few (if any) with clean hands.

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #299 on: July 29, 2016, 12:26:02 pm »

^

Agreed, Bart.
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