And so it continues....

[pegelli]

I know you guys would like to just throw up your hands and surrender, but these folks aren't gonna let you do that. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Russ, why do you always bring up the "other extreme" if we don't agree with your ideas. There's plenty of middle ground between arming every civilian and throwing up your hands and surrendering. 

[RSL]

Quite true, Pieter. The middle ground is where the truck was crushing people.

[pegelli]

Quite true, Pieter. The middle ground is where the truck was crushing people.

What a cheap cop-out, always better to bluff then just answering the question.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Geez, Slobodan, you felt the need to highlight she was a black girl?

Ok, Keith, this time I won't mention the skin color of the perps:

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... would that person have been shot had there not been an exchange of gunfire?...

It is possible that gunmen would be satisfied with the loot and leave everyone alive. However, it is not given, on the contrary:

Teen Shot After Handing Over Cellphone During Robbery Dies

A South Side college student who was shot despite handing his cellphone over to two robbers died Saturday, the Chicago Sun-Times is reporting...“Whatever they asked for, he gave it to them and they still shot him,”

[RSL]

What a cheap cop-out, always better to bluff then just answering the question.

Okay, Pieter. We're at war. Tell me what you think the "middle ground" is in this war -- or for that matter, any war. What was the middle ground in WWII? Was it surrendering?

Or don't you think we're at war.

I think we're at a point where we either fight or die. That means finding an effective way to fight these bastards. Arming ourselves would be a start.

[scyth]

a black girl

you are not supposed to name the color !!!

[scyth]

At this point, Bart, you start to sound desperately naive.

When I was in Russia, there was this team of burglars caught (ultimately). They explained that initially they would just tie people inside the house, but after one of those was able to identify one of them and he got caught, they simply decided that from then on it is much "safer" to kill everybody. And they did. Multiple times.

wearing masks was apparently above the IQ level

[scyth]

Or don't you think we're at war.

don't start the war in the first place... it is like sending marines to prop banana companies down south not so long time ago

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

you are not supposed to name the color !!!

Except when it is a black man shot by a white cop?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

don't start the war in the first place... it is like sending marines to prop banana companies down south not so long time ago

While we can agree on that in principle, it is irrelevant in the given situation. Whether we are guilty or not, we are under attack. The only question then is do we defend ourselves or surrender?

[BobShaw]

Except when it is a black man shot by a white cop?

And he is lying on the ground with his arms in the air.

I guess the rest of the world will never understand the US, and why they still have such an enormous race problem.

[digitaldog]

I guess the rest of the world will never understand the US, and why they still have such an enormous race problem.

Many but clearly not enough of us US citizens don't understand either.

[Tarnash]

You have this idea that a handgun wouldn't have been able to stop that truck. I'd like to know which handguns you've fired and are familiar with.

With the greatest respect Russ.  Really!!!
The effectiveness of handguns is not in question however, the chances of a `citizen', even a well practiced one, being able to incapacitate a rapidly moving fanatic, obscured by the body of a truck, at night, on a street crowed with panicked, stampeding people, without warning are, I believe, vanishingly small.
As I understand it, there were armed police in the vicinity. A far more likely outcome may be the `good guy' getting shot by police in the confusion of an `active' incident.
I understand that nobody likes to feel powerless.  The simple reality however, is that sometimes we all are. No weapon can offer complete or reliable protection against people who are determined to do us harm.
Perhaps it's time to ask questions (of ourselves as well as others) first.  And, by better understanding `what' and `why', reduce the need to shoot altogether. 
   

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...I guess the rest of the world will never understand the US, and why they still have such an enormous race problem.

The US doesn't have a race problem, at least not in the sense you think we have. The US has a problem with the leftie politicians clinging to a race card for vote-pandering purposes. And certain segments of the population clinging to it as a universal excuse for things happening to them that they are otherwise responsible for.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... the chances of a `citizen', even a well practiced one, being able to incapacitate a rapidly moving fanatic, obscured by the body of a truck, at night, on a street crowed with panicked, stampeding people, without warning are, I believe, vanishingly small...   

Well, [people wirh]* guns actually did stop the truck, so your point is completely pointless.

EDITED to preempt smarty-pants comments 

[pegelli]

Okay, Pieter. We're at war. Tell me what you think the "middle ground" is in this war -- or for that matter, any war. What was the middle ground in WWII? Was it surrendering?

Or don't you think we're at war.

I think we're at a point where we either fight or die. That means finding an effective way to fight these bastards. Arming ourselves would be a start.

Russ, why don't you first answer the question I asked you.
So far I answered all the questions you asked me, so I don't see why I should keep doing that if you're not returning the favour.

[pegelli]

Well, guns actually did stop the truck, so your point is completely pointless.

But not the type of guns that might be taken by civilians to an event like this (if it would have been allowed like in the US)

[Tarnash]

Well, guns actually did stop the truck, so your point is completely pointless.

Ah, now you are being mischievous Slobodan.  Surely you accept the wisdom of the NRA in these matters.  To paraphrase their mantra: `Guns don't stop trucks, people stop trucks'!
(Especially properly vetted, trained and disciplined people who, in sufficient numbers and with the necessary firepower and ammunition did indeed kill the perpetrator - Oh! but they didn't `stop the truck'.  It was already stationary when the fatal shots were fired.  Their earlier attempts to stop it, using handguns, whilst it was in motion, failed.)

[Zorki5]

I guess the rest of the world will never understand the US, and why they still have such an enormous race problem.

These are two separate questions.

As to the former: the very first step when trying to understand anything is to call a spade a spade.