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Author Topic: And so it continues....  (Read 59491 times)

tom b

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #180 on: July 26, 2016, 08:01:13 am »

Simple Republican economics, how do we cut costs (think Reagan).

Homeland Security': The Trillion-Dollar Concept That No One Can Define

I love my guns and my right wing beliefs, is it worth (almost?) one trillion dollars?

Something to think about for the dynamic duo.

Cheers,
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Tom Brown

RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #181 on: July 26, 2016, 08:27:52 am »

Has anyone asked the professors whether they WANT to carry guns ?

They wouldn't have a choice. It'd be learn the routine, qualify and carry, or start looking for a job. I spent 26 years in the military and never was really happy when I had to carry a gun. Some things just have to be done even if you'd rather pretend they don't.

Quote
So far, in Europe, we rely on our security services and police forces to provide that protection.

As has been demonstrated again and again security services and cops can't be everywhere at once.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #182 on: July 26, 2016, 08:35:08 am »

On a side note, I wanted to assure our Australian friends that I am really happy for you that you have such a blissful life there (no sarcasm here). Or our friends in any other part of the globe where they enjoy where they are or who they are.

I am aware there are many blissful spots on this planet. The thing is, we can not choose where we are born and, more often than not, where we live. I did not ask to be uprooted from my home town by the events outside my control. I did not ask to be sent to Russia. My choice of Spain came as a result of a coincidence. Move to the States, the same.

The point being, the blissfulness of certain places is a result of many factors, many of which unique, historical or otherwise, which makes it rather difficult to transplant their way of life onto some other place.

If you ask me a hypothetical question, a world without guns or a world where everybody has them, I would chose the one without. But we do not live in a hypothetical world. When you come to America, you can't just cherry-pick what you like about it and discard what you don't. You take the whole package, the good with the bad. America has a gun history. Fought for independence and federation with guns. Survived expansion to the West with guns. Cultivated individualism along the way. Put it (guns) into its Constitution.

Along the way, the same forces that made it #1 superpower economically and militarily (individualism, personal freedoms, and fierce competition), created internal violence and crime. As long as they exist, the need to protect oneself against that violence will remain. You can't have the world superpower with the population consisting of Budist monks.

America is unique (as is Australia, Holland, etc.) and you can't just Frankenstein-ize it by picking healthcare from Canada, gun-control from Japan, etc.

+1

However, it should be possible to learn from others (everybody included) what works better and what not. One of the issues is the weapons industry and the lobbyists. Reducing the dependency from that will have (longer term) positive effects. Government systems are not cast in concrete, they evolve over time. Not really Frankenstein, but common sense.

"Since 1998, the National Rifle Association has donated $3,781,803 to current members of Congress." (link).
Also interesting is to see the NRA rating focusing on predominantly the Republican (House and Senate) members (with A and A+ ratings), instead of the Democrats (with mostly F ratings).

And that's only one source of financial influencers.

It is interesting to observe that almost in unison, as a result of the indoctrination, the response to threats is; more guns, instead of soul-searching or looking for preventative measures. The only one to benefit is the weapons industry.

So while history has played a role in the acceptance of guns in the USA, current history is written by money. Innocent victims be damned, it seems (a bit like how the Tobacco industry used to operate).

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #183 on: July 26, 2016, 09:16:16 am »

They wouldn't have a choice. It'd be learn the routine, qualify and carry, or start looking for a job.

This is where, with respect, your argument starts to fall apart.
You joined the military. It's a reasonable expectation that not only would you need to carry a gun, but that you may have to use it.

A university professor, teacher, academic - it's not part of his CV, nor part of his vocation.
Why would I want to lose a good teacher for something that's out of his domain ? I wouldn't.

Also, today that's a somewhat simplistic view. Recently I had an 'enlightening' few hours with police at Heathrow Airport, combined with a demo of their armed capabilities (some of them, not all).  Those officers are equipped better than you'd expect any paramilitary to be. And they're trained to use them to full effect. No professor is ever going to fill that role. Nor should they.

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jfirneno

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #184 on: July 26, 2016, 09:36:51 am »

Most of the folks here are convinced that people who believe in the right to bear arms are foolish.  Fine.  That's your belief.  Those of us who think gun ownership is wise have several reasons to believe what we do.  Some of them are historical and some are in the news today.  We know that a tyrannical government must confiscate all the guns before they curtail the rest of people's rights (e.g. the Nazis).  We also know that right now the world is beset with Islamic extremists and other extremists who will shoot you or blow you up if you're lucky.  Worst case they'll carve you up (   http://heatst.com/uk/exclusive-france-suppressed-news-of-gruesome-torture-at-bataclan-massacre/  )

So both as a national policy and as an insurance policy to save ourselves and our families from slaughter we choose to put up with the difficulties of guns.  If you can't understand that then too bad.  But I know for a fact that if any of you who preach against guns were one of those poor people trapped in the Bataclan and waiting to be tortured and murdered, you would have traded everything you had for a gun.  At the least you could have given yourself a clean death.
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #185 on: July 26, 2016, 09:47:40 am »

Imagine how many lives might have been saved had a few of those people on that avenue in Nice been armed as the guy with the truck began crashing and crushing through the crowd. Yes, a couple folks might have been hit by stray bullets or ricochets, but a hell of a lot less than 84 likely would have died waiting for the police to respond effectively.

Those of you who think there are nice, neat solutions to violent attacks are living in a dream world. Violence, when it comes, isn't a neat package that will respond well to good intentions. I have a pretty high regard for the correspondents on LuLa and I hope none of you will have to learn about reality the hard way.
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Colorado David

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #186 on: July 26, 2016, 11:10:03 am »

Two attackers claiming allegiance to ISIS and yelling Allahu Akbar, beheaded an 86 year old Priest in Northern France during Mass this morning.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #187 on: July 26, 2016, 11:37:27 am »

Two attackers claiming allegiance to ISIS and yelling Allahu Akbar, beheaded an 86 year old Priest in Northern France during Mass this morning.

Yes, and so it continues...., and this one is at only one of several places in Africa where such things happen.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36892048

Cheers,
Bart
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #188 on: July 26, 2016, 11:51:17 am »

A university professor, teacher, academic - it's not part of his CV, nor part of his vocation.
Why would I want to lose a good teacher for something that's out of his domain ? I wouldn't.

Well, there's a workable alternative, manoli: Universities could pay to have an armed guard in each classroom.
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Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #189 on: July 26, 2016, 12:13:24 pm »

Well, there's a workable alternative, manoli: Universities could pay to have an armed guard in each classroom.

Exactly - we're getting closer , I don't know about each classroom but certainly campus, buildings, whatever each establishment needs to enforce security. It's not a new concept - private security (read:additional policing) is already deployed extensively throughout Europe for any number of reasons. If that entails doubling the size of the police force, then double it,  at least they'll then be trained and appropriately armed.

Look, it's a new paradigm - the West needs to respond. The question is how, not if.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #190 on: July 26, 2016, 12:21:08 pm »

... Look, it's a new paradigm - the West needs to respond. The question is how, not if.

Amen, brother!

RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #191 on: July 26, 2016, 12:21:43 pm »

Exactly my friend. Not "if" but "how?" Problem is, it's going to be expensive to fight back against this religious army and our Socialist approaches to so many other things have pretty much tapped out the gold mine (otherwise known as the taxpayers). If people would realize we're at war we might be able to mobilize them, but their betters are telling them these horrendous attacks are just criminal acts -- to be taken care of by the cops. (Nothing here to see folks. Just move on.) They're going to have to learn the hard way. I suspect the people who were on that street in Nice are convinced now, but that's not enough.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #192 on: July 26, 2016, 12:33:37 pm »

Let's just pose for a second our first-world debates and see what a horrible/wonderful world we live in - a condemnation and ode to humanity at the same time:

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #193 on: July 26, 2016, 12:53:00 pm »

Shouldn't be a problem, Slobodan. Jesus is in the Koran in several places. He's held in high regard.

I am sure the French priest would be glad to know  :(

RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #194 on: July 26, 2016, 12:59:14 pm »

He probably already knew it. Roman priests are pretty thoroughly educated on things like that. Unfortunately he wasn't Jesus -- just a priest.
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digitaldog

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #195 on: July 26, 2016, 01:33:37 pm »

Imagine how many lives might have been saved had a few of those people on that avenue in Nice been armed as the guy with the truck began crashing and crushing through the crowd.
Imagine how many innocent bystanders might have been shot by such untrained people or by the people who should be armed and shooting (police) NOT knowing if those folks with guns where the good guys or the bad guys! Of course, the NRA would have us believe anyone with a gun is a 'good guy'.
Let's leave guns to the pro's and not the amateurs.
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2016, 03:15:09 pm »

Hi Andrew. I can tell you're really familiar with firearms. Maybe you didn't read the rest of what I wrote.
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digitaldog

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2016, 03:23:30 pm »

Hi Andrew. I can tell you're really familiar with firearms. Maybe you didn't read the rest of what I wrote.
I did read what you wrote which implies that if more bystanders had guns, the outcome could have been 'better'. I think it is just as likely the outcome would be worse and explained why.
As for being familiar with guns, yes but no expert. I must have been 10 years old when I fired my first rifle (a 22 I still own). I lived through the LA riots and after, decided I needed a gun for home protection. I bought a shotgun that's never been fired. I bought a 9MM that has been used at an indoor shooting range (I took a gun class) but not in over 25+ years. I don't care if I had to give em up, they mean nothing to me. And if I was foolish enough to suspect I needed guys to fight so called government tyranny, I'm no match for the fire power of the government.
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2016, 03:34:55 pm »

Fair enough, Andrew.

So what you're telling me is that it's better for the crowd to wait for the cops to arrive, while the murderer keeps mowing them down at a great rate, than for a few people in the crowd to stop the whole shebang with some well-placed shots. You're assuming everybody with a gun is a novice and can't hit the broad side of a barn. Maybe that's been your personal experience with your own shooting, but it's not generally true. Furthermore, even if somebody gets hit during the shootout that's still better than the alternative.
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digitaldog

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2016, 03:47:29 pm »

Fair enough, Andrew.
So what you're telling me is that it's better for the crowd to wait for the cops to arrive, while the murderer keeps mowing them down at a great rate, than for a few people in the crowd to stop the whole shebang with some well-placed shots.
Potentially very much so! But not sit around and wait, get the hell out of the way if possible.

As for all this fear, the spec's state that 90+ people a day are killed on US highways. You want to be fearful of a common occurrence we all conduct nearly every day, fear that. Or the flu. 610,000 people die of heart disease in the United States every year. And they get fatter and take care of themselves less and less while worrying about terrorists. It's silly. 
Fear sells. I'm not buying it. That's when the terrorists win. I don't need an assault riffle any more than I need a bazooka or an F15 I can't fly.

I'm assuming that of all those folks shooting around each other, (some able and some not able to strike the side of a barn), my chances of surviving (the tiny possibility I'll be caught up in a terrorist attack) are far more dangerous with more bullets flying around. I'll take my chances on the police who are trained to use firearms in such situations rather than some follower of Duck Dynasty with a firearm.
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