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Author Topic: And so it continues....  (Read 59492 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #160 on: July 25, 2016, 07:57:40 pm »

On a side note, I wanted to assure our Australian friends that I am really happy for you that you have such a blissful life there (no sarcasm here). Or our friends in any other part of the globe where they enjoy where they are or who they are.

I am aware there are many blissful spots on this planet. The thing is, we can not choose where we are born and, more often than not, where we live. I did not ask to be uprooted from my home town by the events outside my control. I did not ask to be sent to Russia. My choice of Spain came as a result of a coincidence. Move to the States, the same.

The point being, the blissfulness of certain places is a result of many factors, many of which unique, historical or otherwise, which makes it rather difficult to transplant their way of life onto some other place.

If you ask me a hypothetical question, a world without guns or a world where everybody has them, I would chose the one without. But we do not live in a hypothetical world. When you come to America, you can't just cherry-pick what you like about it and discard what you don't. You take the whole package, the good with the bad. America has a gun history. Fought for independence and federation with guns. Survived expansion to the West with guns. Cultivated individualism along the way. Put it (guns) into its Constitution.

Along the way, the same forces that made it #1 superpower economically and militarily (individualism, personal freedoms, and fierce competition), created internal violence and crime. As long as they exist, the need to protect oneself against that violence will remain. You can't have the world superpower with the population consisting of Budist monks.

America is unique (as is Australia, Holland, etc.) and you can't just Frankenstein-ize it by picking healthcare from Canada, gun-control from Japan, etc.


kencameron

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #161 on: July 25, 2016, 08:25:00 pm »

I am sure you know what my point is: that determined individuals will find a way in spite of gun control.
Sure, some of them will. But the easy availability of guns makes it easier to do more damage quickly. Guns are effective killing machines - much better than knives, trucks etc and easier to manage than explosives. Unfortunately, there seems no real prospect of any reduction in the availability of guns in the USA. The limited gun control initiatives that have been taken or are politically feasible seem unlikely to make guns significantly harder to come by, given the number already in circulation, and action to reduce that number seems politically a long way out of the question. A high rate of gun-related violence (compared with other first world countries) is a burden our american brothers and sisters will probably continue to bear. Or, as some of them seem to think, a badge of honour.


As a secondary point, yes, if someone inside the house actually had a gun, the carnage could have been stopped with less fatalities.
That is certainly possible. Or, in a confused situation where people are milling around, the carnage could have been increased through friendly fire. Most gun owners are pretty incompetent and pistols are very hard to shoot accurately. Even trained police and soldiers often miss, beyond point blank range. The accuracy with which good guys shoot in the movies isn't an accurate representation of reality.
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Ken Cameron

BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #162 on: July 25, 2016, 08:30:48 pm »

Yes, they do. Apparently the attacker was an employee of the facility.
So he would of had access to the gun, if they had one. Great plan.
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BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #163 on: July 25, 2016, 08:39:31 pm »

On a side note, I wanted to assure our Australian friends that I am really happy for you that you have such a blissful life there (no sarcasm here).
It's not sarcasm, it's reality. Australia is F###ing amazing, thanks.
As long as we can stop getting dragged into wars started by others that they can't win.
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kencameron

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #164 on: July 25, 2016, 08:46:15 pm »


If you ask me a hypothetical question, a world without guns or a world where everybody has them, I would chose the one without. But we do not live in a hypothetical world. When you come to America, you can't just cherry-pick what you like about it and discard what you don't. You take the whole package, the good with the bad. America has a gun history. Fought for independence and federation with guns. Survived expansion to the West with guns. Cultivated individualism along the way. Put it (guns) into its Constitution.

America is unique (as is Australia, Holland, etc.) and you can't just Frankenstein-ize it by picking healthcare from Canada, gun-control from Japan, etc.


I  agree with this and I often say something similar to Australians who simply can't understand America's relationship to guns. I have been fortunate enough to have it explained to me by American friends who are gun-owners and gun-lovers and who I know to be educated and reasonable people.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 08:53:50 pm by kencameron »
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Ken Cameron

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #165 on: July 25, 2016, 08:47:04 pm »

It's not sarcasm, it's reality...

Bob, you argue with me even when I pay you a compliment!?

kencameron

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #166 on: July 25, 2016, 08:50:48 pm »

As long as we can stop getting dragged into wars started by others that they can't win.
We have never been dragged into a war. We have entered all of them entirely of our democratically expressed free will. Sometimes unwisely, sure.
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Ken Cameron

BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #167 on: July 25, 2016, 09:49:57 pm »

We have never been dragged into a war. We have entered all of them entirely of our democratically expressed free will. Sometimes unwisely, sure.
Wise assumes that you are told all of the information and that the information is correct.
I was in the Army Reserve during Vietnam, so I supported that.
Looking back, what was that about?
We invade Vietnam (against the United Nations directive) to stop the "Yellow Peril" that didn't exist.  It was "All the way with LBJ".
Dropped 8 times more bombs than WW2.
Years later change Vietnam to Iraq, Change Yellow Peril to WMD, change LBJ to G Bush 1. Then Iraq 2 and G Bush 2.

When Russia drove into Afghanistan to stop the Taliban we were told about the "poor Taliban", an oppressed people that needed to be helped to stop those nasty Russians. So the US gave them weapons. Who is fighting the Taliban now?

So next time a someone tells you you have to go into a country and shoot people who live there maybe we should be ask a few more questions.

The whole gun thing reality is that guns are big business.
Check these
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/02/americas-gun-business-by-the-numbers.html
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kencameron

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #168 on: July 26, 2016, 02:17:54 am »

Wise assumes that you are told all of the information and that the information is correct.
I was in the Army Reserve during Vietnam, so I supported that.
Looking back, what was that about?
We invade Vietnam (against the United Nations directive) to stop the "Yellow Peril" that didn't exist.  It was "All the way with LBJ".
Dropped 8 times more bombs than WW2.
Years later change Vietnam to Iraq, Change Yellow Peril to WMD, change LBJ to G Bush 1. Then Iraq 2 and G Bush 2.

When Russia drove into Afghanistan to stop the Taliban we were told about the "poor Taliban", an oppressed people that needed to be helped to stop those nasty Russians. So the US gave them weapons. Who is fighting the Taliban now?

So next time a someone tells you you have to go into a country and shoot people who live there maybe we should be ask a few more questions.

The whole gun thing reality is that guns are big business.
Check these
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/02/americas-gun-business-by-the-numbers.html
Bob, I agree with most of your post, especially that we should "ask a few more questions" before going to war. The point I was making is that to say we were "dragged" is ducking our collective responsibility for decisions that we made, as a nation, through our democratic political process.
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Ken Cameron

BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #169 on: July 26, 2016, 03:06:23 am »

Bob, I agree with most of your post, especially that we should "ask a few more questions" before going to war. The point I was making is that to say we were "dragged" is ducking our collective responsibility for decisions that we made, as a nation, through our democratic political process.
Fair call.
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #171 on: July 26, 2016, 03:54:03 am »

All quite true, Pieter, but you're forgetting the professor in the next room. At least he can confine the slaughter to a single room if he knows what he's doing. If not, everybody in the building is screwed. Your approach seems to be to throw up your hands and surrender. Gee. . . Sounds a lot like WW II.

That riposte seems a bit below the belt.  For a man who went to war in a state-of-the art aircraft backed by the richest most powerful nation on earth to belittle a man who's country was invaded by (at the time) the most destructive and effective military machine (the German army) seems quite thoughtless.  Especially as it was only 20 years after their country had been devastated by the First World War.  Belgium is a tiny country easily overrun in a short time.

Jim
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stamper

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #172 on: July 26, 2016, 04:09:52 am »

What happens if class room assistants and teachers don't want to be armed? I don't think that they could be forced to and collectively they would probably vote not to be.

pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #173 on: July 26, 2016, 04:14:29 am »

Your approach seems to be to throw up your hands and surrender. Gee. . . Sounds a lot like WW II.
Where did you get the idea we would throw up our hands and surrender, no need to make derogatory and wrong assumptions. It doesn't help your case.

And while indeed the US army did a great job in WWII it didn't all happen for altruistic reasons and had a healthy dose of self interest mixed in.   
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 04:45:05 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #174 on: July 26, 2016, 04:51:54 am »

Come on guys, give it a rest.

You are all getting more and more etrenched and it isn't going anywhere good.

This has sunk into nothing whatsoever to do with logic or reasoned argument, but just verbal combat: why make enemies where you don't have to? Just walk away and let peace return. I've seen other forums disintegrate - don't screw this one!

Call it a draw and have a coffee.

;-)

Rob C

Robert Roaldi

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #175 on: July 26, 2016, 06:56:17 am »

Rob, you're correct, but I feel the need to make one last comment or two.

The upshot seems to be that some people believe that it's normal to have guns and that they feel safer if they have them. But is it working? Are things at least trending in that direction? If not, don't you think they should be by now? It's not as if it's difficult for all you "good guys" to have guns. Shouldn't you be out these fighting crime and "terrorists" and preventing shootings and whatever else, just a bit more often by this time? I'm not hearing about any of that. Shouldn't you feel safer by now, is what I'm asking?

Because that's not the impression I get. It's a small and perhaps not representative sample of opinion that we've read in this thread and others, but I am not getting the impression that you generally feel safe. There are fears of ISIS blowing up your cities, when it seems to me that those groups may have shot their wad. They can't seem to form a state in their own backyard, how are they going to take over Chicago. Not even the Chicago cops can do that.

Professors mandated to carry guns? Really? Do you honestly think that's going to happen or that it will work? It's ok in some jurisdictions to blast some guy on your front porch without having to assess if there is any danger. Is this situation really making you feel free?

I am thinking again about that caregiver in Florida who was shot 3 times in the leg last Monday and the increasingly lame excuses for what happened. Accidental discharge was one that appeared on this site. The police union had another howler that I read about. Forgetting all that for the moment, my question about that is this. In a situation where the caregiver and autistic guy did not present any obvious demonstrated danger to anyone, including themselves or the police (and wouldn't we have heard by now if there had been?), my question is not why the guy was "accidentally" shot, my question is why were their weapons even unholstered in the first place? Are guns making you feel safer or are you all walking the streets in permanent fear because you're worried everyone else is packing?

Because to listen to Trump's ending speech at the convention, with talk of danger and destruction and evil criminal migrants (although home-grown american "terrorists" have done more than their fair share of random killing, don't you think?), and to listen to some of the descriptions of the state of your society on these pages lately, I have to confess that you're sounding a little paranoid to me.

Is present day culture inducing such widespread anxiety in your citizens that it's causing people to run around guns a blazing as if you were living in the (largely fictitious) "Wild West"? As I have asked before, what's the upside?

« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:33:59 am by Robert Roaldi »
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pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #176 on: July 26, 2016, 06:58:59 am »

Come on guys, give it a rest.

.......

Call it a draw and have a coffee.

;-)

Rob C
Rob, which thread here in LL which involved strong opinions and strong characters did ever reach a homogeneous conclusion? ;)

I think the discussion here is still reasonable polite and reasoned and while we don't all agree (to the contrary  :P) new points keep get added. 
But I agree, as soon as ad hominem attacks get the violent majority the thread is better left alone or closed, but until then what's the harm in running a few more circles.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #177 on: July 26, 2016, 07:19:59 am »

Call it a draw and have a coffee.

Scottish humour ... ( and yes, you Yanks, note the spelling ... !)


[/* levity mode ON]
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petermfiore

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #178 on: July 26, 2016, 07:33:59 am »

Scottish humour ... ( and yes, you Yanks, note the spelling ... !)
[/* levity mode ON]

Highly humorous...

Peter

Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #179 on: July 26, 2016, 07:37:09 am »

Professors mandated to carry guns? Really?

Has anyone asked the professors whether they WANT to carry guns ?

So far, in Europe, we rely on our security services and police forces to provide that protection. And considering that the recently installed President of NYU is an ex Vice Chancellor of Oxford University, I don't see that idea gaining much traction. Indeed, looking at the rest of the Profs and academics in the recent NYU Salute, the very last thing the majority of them should have is a firearm.

Anyway, continuing [/* levity mode ON], I'm sending a recommendation to the President of HBO to start a new series, starring Russ and Slobodan, as modern day Republican 'Cheech & Chong' replacements. Blockbuster stuff .
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:49:37 am by Manoli »
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