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Author Topic: And so it continues....  (Read 59916 times)

pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #140 on: July 25, 2016, 03:08:27 pm »

And I'm sure they'll continue to believe that right up to the hour when an ISIS murderer blows away a classroom full of people.
If the ISIS attack is anything like the Zaventem/Brussels Maalbeek bombers then nobody will be aware until the device detonates. A gun ain't much use then.
I also don't have a lot of confidence in a professor with a small handgun against a few guys walking in with a Kalashnikov, especially if the ISIS guys know the only one in the room who is armed is standing in front of the classroom at the board. Even the armed guard at the Charlie Hebdo office didn't stand a chance against the surprise attack. 
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pieter, aka pegelli

digitaldog

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2016, 03:13:39 pm »

The notion of armed professors and guards in Universities (think Oxford & Cambridge) is so incongruous that, to Brits, it's tantamount to Disneyland on hallucinogens .
As someone who in his youth did try hallucinogens at Disneyland (S.Cal), I can say it didn't suck!  ;D
But yes, the idea you point it is IMHO silly. But then I've got some wacked out brain cells from my youth.
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LesPalenik

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #142 on: July 25, 2016, 03:21:21 pm »

Things that can be done: not letting refugees in (your own decision)

Things that cannot be done (by you): Changing American policies

You would think so, but for some reason, Frau Merkel won't listen.
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #143 on: July 25, 2016, 03:47:43 pm »

If the ISIS attack is anything like the Zaventem/Brussels Maalbeek bombers then nobody will be aware until the device detonates. A gun ain't much use then.
I also don't have a lot of confidence in a professor with a small handgun against a few guys walking in with a Kalashnikov, especially if the ISIS guys know the only one in the room who is armed is standing in front of the classroom at the board. Even the armed guard at the Charlie Hebdo office didn't stand a chance against the surprise attack.

All quite true, Pieter, but you're forgetting the professor in the next room. At least he can confine the slaughter to a single room if he knows what he's doing. If not, everybody in the building is screwed. Your approach seems to be to throw up your hands and surrender. Gee. . . Sounds a lot like WW II.
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scyth

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #144 on: July 25, 2016, 04:46:36 pm »

Even the armed guard at the Charlie Hebdo office didn't stand a chance against the surprise attack.

I think that was not just an armed guard, but a actually a genuine armed policeman on assigned duty (not extra work off duty)
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scyth

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2016, 04:55:39 pm »

I am not (a refugee).

guilty by association !
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scyth

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #146 on: July 25, 2016, 04:56:49 pm »

Or they can drive a truck. No machine gun produced as many fatalities in a single attack.
just because he did not find a 2nd person to sit along w/ him with the machine gun firing ... the lack of planning.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #147 on: July 25, 2016, 06:12:24 pm »

In a country far, far away, and with a gun control far, far stricter than here:

19 dead, 20 injured in knife attack outside Tokyo

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #148 on: July 25, 2016, 06:22:25 pm »

In a country far, far away, and with a gun control far, far stricter than here:

19 dead, 20 injured in knife attack outside Tokyo

And your point is ..., that with more guns this would not have happened, or what????

Cheers,
Bart
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #149 on: July 25, 2016, 06:28:45 pm »

And your point is ..., that with more guns this would not have happened, or what????

I am sure you know what my point is: that determined individuals will find a way in spite of gun control.

As a secondary point, yes, if someone inside the house actually had a gun, the carnage could have been stopped with less fatalities.

You found it pertinent to post the news about two dead in Florida earlier today, just because it was gun-related. I thought it equally pertinent to mention 19 fatalities not gun-related.

petermfiore

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2016, 06:29:33 pm »

And your point is ..., that with more guns this would not have happened, or what????

Cheers,
Bart

It could just mean that some people are just sick...all types of objects are around all of us, every day, that are capable of human destruction.

Peter

kencameron

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2016, 06:36:09 pm »

And I'm sure they'll continue to believe that right up to the hour when an ISIS murderer blows away a classroom full of people.



I had the impression that in the USA at least, classrooms full of people are generally blown away by disgruntled former students and other natives without connections to ISIS. Here are some of the facts.

The serious point, though, is that arming teachers and professors is a suggestion that, at the moment, is simply outside the ambits of rational discourse and political possibility in many countries outside the USA. Contrary to your apparent belief, this isn't because everyone else is naive, stupid or has a poor war record. The USA differs from my country (Australia) and many others in its "gun culture", which I take to include attitudes to and public discourse about guns, their accessibility, the extent of gun ownership, the uses to which guns are actually put, and regulation and the politics around these things. And this is not one of the aspects of american life which we envy. In this area (certainly not in all), we pretty much unanimously prefer to be the way we are rather than the way you are - one outcome of the way we are being a much lower incidence of all kinds of gun violence including classroom shootings.

Now of course, we could change our minds about all this. Over the next ten years we are likely, or IMO certain, to come under domestic attack by terrorists using guns and other weapons and it is perfectly possible that our disgruntled former students may imitate some of yours in turning to violence. When these things happen, we may decide that part of the solution is arming our teachers. In making that decision, we will look closely at the USA example and will find it interesting if there turns out to be evidence that your different approach to guns has protected you against gun violence inflicted on innocents in classrooms, as some of you apparently believe to be the case now.


(
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Ken Cameron

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #152 on: July 25, 2016, 06:39:37 pm »

I am sure you know what my point is: that determined individuals will find a way in spite of gun control.

I think most people already said as much, they'll use whatever it is that they have access to.

Quote
As a secondary point, yes, if someone inside the house actually had a gun, the carnage could have been stopped with less fatalities.

You found it pertinent to post the news about two dead in Florida earlier today, just because it was gun-related. I thought it equally pertinent to mention 19 fatalities not gun-related.

Ah, so that's what was bugging you. Well, 'your' 19 deaths trump 'my' 2 deaths, so you win?

Sad.

Cheers,
Bart
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BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #153 on: July 25, 2016, 06:46:55 pm »

As an ex teacher this headline "Since 2013, there have been at least 189 school shootings in America — an average of nearly one a week.' is alarming.
Tom, I wrote a page or so back that you were wasting your keyboard.
Settle back, relax, and be grateful that you are living in a country where kids can go to school without being shot.

Nothing is going to change in the US. Most of them have never travelled to other countries. As for American TV, I love the one where it starts "Each year x million Americans leave the safety of our shores to visit other countries". Like, that's a bad thing, or less safe? If you peruse the For Sale section many of them can't even post to other countries.

We in Australia have just been through the longest election campaign ever. Nearly 8 weeks of torture! In the US they spend a whole year of a 4 year term just on getting elected. The result, whatever that is, is going to be someone who doesn't even have the support of half in their own party. The president that gets elected is just a figurehead. He (or she) says "we are going to make people stop at red lights" and congress says "no you are not, it is our constitutional right to go through red lights".

Let them be and settle back with a cold one.
While doing that Google "Jim Jefferies Gun Control" and have a laugh. Even the Americans can laugh at it.
" https://www.google.com.au/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Jim+Jefferies+Gun+Control&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=S5aWV7SxF8XN8gfWzY3oAw"



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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2016, 06:47:46 pm »

... Ah, so that's what was bugging you. Well, 'your' 19 deaths trump 'my' 2 deaths, so you win?

No, that is not it. I did not ask you what's your point when you posted the news. You, however, found it necessary to question my posting.

As for the numbers, you et al keep insisting on how America has much more mass shootings than the rest of the developed world. In other words, you have no problem with comparing numbers when "your" numbers trump "our" numbers (which they actually do not, as I posted before).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 06:52:29 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2016, 06:51:49 pm »

California school district votes to allow teachers to carry guns in the classroom

Quote
Armed teachers in classrooms are no longer a reality reserved for states like Texas and Indiana, but now the norm in at least one California school district.

California’s Kingsburg school board unanimously voted Monday night to allow school staff members to carry guns on school grounds, reported the Sacramento Bee. The new policy, which is effective immediately, will allow up to five staff members to carry guns on campus and even inside classrooms. Recently passed California state laws grants individual districts and superintendents the authority to allow guns on campus
.

P.S. Since Bart likes to question my motivation in posting things, I am posting this to show that Russ is not crazy, as some of you apparently think, in suggesting to arm teachers.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 06:56:13 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #156 on: July 25, 2016, 06:55:20 pm »

As a secondary point, yes, if someone inside the house actually had a gun, the carnage could have been stopped with less fatalities.

A 26 yr old man has, singlehandedly, killed at least 19 people, injured 45 others , about 20 seriously, in a knife attack at a facility for disabled people. It's another mass killing. It's unlikely that anyone within that home would have been physically competent enough to use any weapon in self defence.

Yes, had a policeman been there, any policeman let alone an armed policeman, the attack would have been less murderous. That there wasn't isn't any reason to advocate an armed civil defence force in preference to a police presence, armed or otherwise.

Your point is, what ?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 07:03:23 pm by Manoli »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #157 on: July 25, 2016, 07:07:17 pm »

... It's unlikely that anyone within that home would have been physically competent enough to use any weapon in self defence...

I assume such homes have caregivers, staff?

My suggestion was hypothetical, in answer to Bart's prodding.

I can fully understand that in a society where such things happen extremely rarely, it does not occur to anyone there is a need to have at least one member of the stuff armed. I live in a safe neighborhood and thus have very little incentive to acquire a gun, for instance. There was no initiative to arm teachers in America in the past either, until those things have become more frequent. A lot of arms existed in America even before mass school shootings started, and yet there were no mass school shootings, until recently.

Now that they are frequent, what to do? Pretend they are not happening? Or prepare to defend oneself and the students?

Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #158 on: July 25, 2016, 07:16:48 pm »

I assume such homes have caregivers, staff?

Yes, they do. Apparently the attacker was an employee of the facility.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #159 on: July 25, 2016, 07:19:28 pm »

No, that is not it. I did not ask you what's your point when you posted the news ...

It was written right there, "Sad".

Cheers,
Bart
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