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Author Topic: And so it continues....  (Read 59460 times)

Peter_DL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #100 on: July 24, 2016, 01:57:45 pm »

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #101 on: July 24, 2016, 02:00:36 pm »

... I don't know why you are using the derogatory term "nanny state" to countries with gun control. I think the majority over here is OK with more gun control. Nothing "nanny" about that, just executing the will of the people (as in the US).

Another philosophical difference between the US and Europe.

I do not see Europe as the "will of the people" entity. The origin of the government power there is diametrically opposite. It comes first from God, then King/Queen, then the government. People there (including Australia) are still Queen's subjects.

The United States are formed in an antithetically different way: "We the people [with guns, btw]..." decided to form a government, and give it as much or as little power as we wish. In Europe, it is the government that gives its subjects certain rights. And given the long history of serfdom, the people are apparently glad they are given any rights.

OK, exaggerated a bit, but just to make a point.

pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #102 on: July 24, 2016, 02:11:28 pm »

Another philosophical difference between the US and Europe.

I do not see Europe as the "will of the people" entity. The origin of the government power there is diametrically opposite. It comes first from God, then King/Queen, then the government. People there (including Australia) are still Queen's subjects.

The United States are formed in an antithetically different way: "We the people [with guns, btw]..." decided to form a government, and give it as much or as little power as we wish. In Europe, it is the government that gives its subjects certain rights. And given the long history of serfdom, the people are apparently glad they are given any rights.

OK, exaggerated a bit, but just to make a point.
Well, some Europeans and other non-Americans got a lot of heat in this and similar threads about how they could be so arrogant to critique the American policies while not (or no longer) being part of that society.
Let me just conclude that the pot is blaming the kettle that it's black ;)

For many countries you're referring to (incl. Australia and the UK) the king/queen is a pure symbolic function and can only speak under the authority of the chosen government. That's certainly true for the country I was born as well as the country I now live in.

And with respect to being subject to God above king/queen, if certain more conservative voices (which are a significant part of the Republican party) in the US get into power you might be subject to a lot more authority given by the bible versus a secular government upholding the freedom of religion (which is also in the bill of rights).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 02:15:17 pm by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #103 on: July 24, 2016, 02:24:08 pm »

And with respect to being subject to God above king/queen, if certain more conservative voices (which are a significant part of the Republican party) in the US get into power you might be subject to a lot more authority given by the bible versus a secular government upholding the freedom of religion (which is also in the bill of rights).

Pieter, before you go off on tangents like this one you need to become familiar with the U.S. Constitution. The guys who put that together were quite familiar with the threats posed by various kinds of thugs. There are plenty of built-in firewalls against what you're suggesting. And, I might add, there are very few such firewalls in most European countries including yours.
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pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #104 on: July 24, 2016, 02:53:33 pm »

Pieter, before you go off on tangents like this one you need to become familiar with the U.S. Constitution. The guys who put that together were quite familiar with the threats posed by various kinds of thugs. There are plenty of built-in firewalls against what you're suggesting. And, I might add, there are very few such firewalls in most European countries including yours.
Time will tell Russ, currently I'm less worried about that in Europe then in the US. I agree the constitution is well put together and very good. I'm a secular guy at heart so I hope you're right but some interpretations I'm reading from certain circles in the US give me the creeps.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #105 on: July 24, 2016, 03:27:04 pm »

Bart, how sure are you it's a silent majority
Don't misunderstand me, I'm as sick of any mass shooting, terrorist act and homicide as you are and every person killed is one too many.
But if there is really a majority to tackle the problem in the US why doesn't that get reflected in the election results?

Hi Pieter,

As an optimist, and I still give some credit to the normal people, I do not believe that the majority are gun fundamentalists.
I'm pretty confident that if the question were asked if people want more, or fewer mass killings, the answer would be as I expect, fewer. Since that is not going to automagically happen by itself, some things need to be done, preventative action needs to be taken.

However, we apparently are not allowed to discuss / analyze what the root causes are that would need to be addressed...

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 03:30:24 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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RSL

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #106 on: July 24, 2016, 03:38:15 pm »

I'm a secular guy at heart so I hope you're right but some interpretations I'm reading from certain circles in the US give me the creeps.

Some give me the creeps too -- mostly the ones from the left. But if you know anything about U.S. history you know there always have been political movements giving people the creeps. I think the soon-to-be breakup of the EU is even creepier. The thing simply isn't working, but to go back to the bad old days (like the days when I was a kid) is a truly creepy thought.
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pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #107 on: July 24, 2016, 03:40:13 pm »

However, we apparently are not allowed to discuss / analyze what the root causes are that would need to be addressed...
Well, in the spirit of "freedom of speech" I don't think anybody can disallow that here, although some other members will ridicule and stereotype that as "leftist talk" and claim it should not be undertaken by in their eyes arrogant non-US citizens.  :o
So I can understand your hesitation to go further.  :-\ 
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2016, 03:44:15 pm »

Gee, guys, if 24 pages were not enough to prove your case and get to the bottom of rooth cause...

pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #109 on: July 24, 2016, 03:46:21 pm »

Some give me the creeps too -- mostly the ones from the left. But if you know anything about U.S. history you know there always have been political movements giving people the creeps. I think the soon-to-be breakup of the EU is even creepier. The thing simply isn't working, but to go back to the bad old days (like the days when I was a kid) is a truly creepy thought.
I agree Russ, I hope some of our leaders will get going and transform the EU into something that is representative of the majority of the population and not end in umpteen micro management rules that don't make sense in the big picture and don't address the real questions. Going back to the old isolationist ways is not the solution. And I get the creeps from most populists and extremists, irrespective if they're right or left. I think both sides on the extreme are equally dangerous.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #110 on: July 24, 2016, 04:20:47 pm »

Gee, guys, if 24 pages were not enough to prove your case and get to the bottom of rooth cause...

So what's your solution then?

Cheers
Bart
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LesPalenik

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #111 on: July 24, 2016, 09:32:20 pm »

Nobody knows what's the solution (except Trump who claims to have the right answers to everything), but it seems that the bombing season is just getting under way.
In Ansbach in Bavaria, there was an explosion Sunday night with one dead and at least 10 injured.

 

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kencameron

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #112 on: July 24, 2016, 09:32:30 pm »

Another philosophical difference between the US and Europe.

I do not see Europe as the "will of the people" entity. The origin of the government power there is diametrically opposite. It comes first from God, then King/Queen, then the government. People there (including Australia) are still Queen's subjects.

In this paragraph, "europe" becomes a meaningless concept, and not only because it somehow includes Australia. "European" countries have very diverse constitutional  arrangements and gods, kings and queens play little or no part in most of them. Many european countries had "revolutions" which set aside practical ecclesiastical and regal authority in much the same way as did the American revolution. Symbolism is of course another story. America has god and the flag, european countries a wide range of equivalents. Certainly there are stories to be told about conflict between the power of the state and the rights of individuals in "european" countries, as there are in all countries. But it doesn't seem to me as if the outcome is simplistically in favour of the state in "european" countries and of the individual in America, where, after all, the Constitution hasn't prevented the state from giving its citizens legal racial segregation for most of its history,  the war on drugs with its multiple adverse consequences including an astonishingly high prison population rate,  hi-tech intrusions on personal privacy and local police forces armed to the teeth with surplus military equipment. In this context I  can't think of any Nation State that is better than a not unmixed blessing, either in europe or in the americas.
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tom b

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2016, 02:20:42 am »

Gee, guys, if 24 pages were not enough to prove your case and get to the bottom of rooth cause...

Gee Slobodan, you don't seem to get the fact that you can't send your child to school in safety in America because of guns.

"Since 2013, there have been at least 189 school shootings in America — an average of nearly one a week".

In NSW the biggest threat to school children is peanuts and peanut products, both of which are banned in schools. Training in the use of EpiPens is mandatory.

Hey, I'm in a 4 star hotel in Bali. Those socialist bastards made me pay into a superannuation scheme so I would be comfortable in my retirement. I'll be moving into a new apartment in Sydney soon. Oh yeah, four out of the ten most liveable cities in the world are Australian.

Liveable cities

I live a very comfortable life in one of the most liveable cities in the world. I don't need a gun and except for security officers they are nowhere to be seen. Did I say I don't need a gun and never have.

Freedom, it is a double edged sword.

For the most part Australia has struck a very good balance, America has done a not so good job, it seems to be that rhetoric is more important than results. For me it is far better to have a very liveable life than to own a gun!

Cheers,
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 02:30:13 am by tom b »
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Tom Brown

LesPalenik

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2016, 04:15:57 am »

Summary of last week 4 violent acts in Germany:

Wuerzburg - 17 year old Afghan refugee using an ax and knife - injures 4 people
Munich - by 19 year old Iranian-German, illegal handgun, 9 dead, 26 injured
Reutlingen - 21 year old Syrian, using a machete - 5 injured
Ansbach - 27 year old Syrian, using an improvised bomb with metal fragments - one dead, 12 injured

On one hand, Germany strict gun laws didn't prevent these attacks. None of the bad guys used a legally obtained gun.
On the other hand, if the guns in Germany could be obtained as easily as in USA, with 1.1 million refugees in 2015 alone, some of them being disgruntled, mentally unstable or criminal, the number of attacks and dead would be likely much higher
 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #115 on: July 25, 2016, 04:59:32 am »

Summary of last week 4 violent acts in Germany:

Wuerzburg - 17 year old Afghan refugee using an ax and knife - injures 4 people
Munich - by 19 year old Iranian-German, illegal handgun, 9 dead, 26 injured
Reutlingen - 21 year old Syrian, using a machete - 5 injured
Ansbach - 27 year old Syrian, using an improvised bomb with metal fragments - one dead, 12 injured

On one hand, Germany strict gun laws didn't prevent these attacks. None of the bad guys used a legally obtained gun.
On the other hand, if the guns in Germany could be obtained as easily as in USA, with 1.1 million refugees in 2015 alone, some of them being disgruntled, mentally unstable or criminal, the number of attacks and dead would be likely much higher

Hi,

I agree that easy access to instruments that are designed to kill, does not help. While they are just instruments and their availability is not the root cause, it also shows that unstable people or criminals will always find a tool to do what they think that they must do. But why make it easier than necessary?

Here is an overview of what happens when guns are very accessible, they will be used and because they are designed to kill, they are effective. Do pay attention to the higher number of non-lethal injuries, often not reported in the usual statistics !

Again, gun possession is a symptom, and reducing availability helps, but it is not the solution. It is one of many things that can be done to improve the situation. It is usually even more effective to focus on the root cause of these acts of violence, and reduce the risk of them happening in the first place. But then one should be willing to investigate those root causes, and not only focus on the symptoms.

Cheers,
Bart
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Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2016, 05:07:14 am »

... if the guns in Germany could be obtained as easily as in USA, with 1.1 million refugees in 2015 alone, some of them being disgruntled, mentally unstable or criminal, the number of attacks and dead would be likely much higher

Just repeating it, Les, in the hope that it might produce a sliver of cognition ...
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 05:14:22 am by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #117 on: July 25, 2016, 05:10:07 am »

Again, gun possession is a symptom, and reducing availability helps, but it is not the solution. It is one of many things that can be done to improve the situation.

Hi Bart,

I'm not sure 'symptom' is the right word and in searching for the 'solution' there are intervening steps that would help. Curtailing the ease with which guns, particularly military-grade guns, can be acquired would be such a step.

M

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2016, 07:13:57 am »

I'm not sure 'symptom' is the right word and in searching for the 'solution' there are intervening steps that would help. Curtailing the ease with which guns, particularly military-grade guns, can be acquired would be such a step.

M., I agree, and one can do not just one or the other, but both at the same time. Things like (addressing symptoms)  repairing the aberrations of military grade weapons being sold to civilians, especially with inadequate periodic background checkups, as blocked by the Republican Congress members, AND (preventative) making a start to address the social issues that seem to be one root cause, and the adoration of violence on TV and in Games, to name a few (!)).

I do think guns are more a symptom, than e.g. something constitutional (which it also is, but not exclusively). I'm not so sure that gun possession is praised to the skies only due the US Constitution, because many Americans do not even have guns. But there is a large group of people who think that their government cannot be trusted (and neighbors / strangers / etc.), and they need guns to protect themselves against the Government they themselves helped to get in power. There are some opportunities for improvement on those aspects as well, it seems. A more trustworthy government might also help, less influenced by personal gain (campaign donations and/or bribes) and Lobbyists (often former politicians).

Not an easy task, but it is insane to not at least make a serious effort. I prefer to focus on things that can be done (even if they are hard to do), instead of focusing on the things that cannot be done. More productive that way.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 07:23:08 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #119 on: July 25, 2016, 09:16:36 am »

And continues ...

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/25/us/fort-myers-nightclub-shooting/index.html
Quote
Two people are dead and at least 14 others were injured after a shooting at a Florida nightclub, Fort Myers police Capt. Jim Mulligan said.

Police are investigating two other related scenes.

Sad.

Cheers,
Bart
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