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Author Topic: And so it continues....  (Read 59464 times)

tom b

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2016, 07:13:42 pm »

"Mostly the same members arguing over very similar subjects and none of the previous threads had a satisfactory conclusion? How many pages before the thread gets locked?"

Just to avoid confusion – I locked my "What does it take?" thread. It was morphing into a Republican vs Democrat debate which as we all know can be quite intractable. And therein lies the rub. Gun control can only work when a society is united and says enough is enough. It also has to have strong borders to keep out weapons from other countries. America is a huge part of the problem as it contributes so many deadly weapons to the world.

Cheers,
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Tom Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2016, 08:08:24 pm »

... America is a huge part of the problem...

Tom,

What is your obsession with America and its guns? By any measure, Europe, with its strict gun control, has had more mass shootings than the U.S. in recent years. Where is your despair and disgust with that?

LesPalenik

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2016, 09:56:16 pm »

It's off topic for the discussion here, but the US has 4 times the inhabitants vs. Germany and 10 times the number of traffic death. So the US roads are a lot less save, despite lower speed limits and use of automatic transmission/cruise control.

Also if you look per Billion miles driven the US has a ~50% higher traffic death rate vs. Germany (4.9 in Germany vs. 7.1 in the US)

That was exactly my point. The US road are actually quite safe, it's their drivers who aren't and engage in all kinds of non-driving activities, while cruising at politically correct 60mph.

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tom b

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2016, 10:01:31 pm »

Slobodan

1,000 mass shootings in 1,260 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like

Yeah, I know that this definition includes injured, but I bet one of your family got shot you wouldn't write it off.

The story

I can't see how you can't think that is not a giant problem to be solved.

The only solution I've heard is to add more guns, over ten million last year to the over three hundred million in circulation.

We get a lot of news coverage for America and with the long winded Presidential campaign there is a fair amount of fatigue and despair. Australia's defence policy is tied to America's so we can tend to be dragged into conflicts by proxy.

We also get a lot of American television (so much so that we have to have quotas for local content). People get shot all the time in television dramas, it seems to no big deal. So yeah, America features greatly in Australian lives, obviously so much more than you think.

As for Europe, in Australia our news coverage is about Britain with occasional reference to France and Germany. The only other times we read about Europe is if there is a conflict, terrorist attack or if they are going broke. The rest of Europe is a big black hole.

Cheers,
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Tom Brown

BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2016, 01:14:30 am »

1,000 mass shootings in 1,260 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like
The only solution I've heard is to add more guns, over ten million last year to the over three hundred million in circulation.
We get a lot of news coverage for America and with the long winded Presidential campaign there is a fair amount of fatigue and despair. Australia's defence policy is tied to America's so we can tend to be dragged into conflicts by proxy.
Cheers,
I think you are wasting your keyboard Tom.
More Americans will be killed in America by guns fired by Americans in the next 18 months than were killed in the entire 10 years of the Vietnam War.
Americans obviously are happy with their situation otherwise they would do something about that instead of trying to fix the rest of the world, which is actually pretty safe.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2016, 01:33:08 am »

Tom, you don't seem to be reading what I posted, so I'll repeat it:

Europe has more mass shootings than the U.S.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2016, 01:53:25 am »

... More Americans will be killed in America by guns fired by Americans in the next 18 months than were killed in the entire 10 years of the Vietnam War...

Either you know something about the future 18 months that we don't (civil war, race war?) or you don't know what you are talking about. Total gun related death is typically about 12,000 per year, so 18,000 per year and a half, while total military casualties in the Vietnam war were about 58,000. And once again, ⅔ of those are suicides.

BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2016, 03:09:03 am »

Either you know something about the future 18 months that we don't (civil war, race war?) or you don't know what you are talking about. Total gun related death is typically about 12,000 per year, so 18,000 per year and a half, while total military casualties in the Vietnam war were about 58,000. And once again, ⅔ of those are suicides.
I don't know about Civil War, but Mr Google when asked  "Gun deaths America" says
"According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 73,505 nonfatal injuries (23.23 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000), 21,175 by suicide with a firearm, 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms-"
So about 33,000 deaths and 73,500 non fatal injuries in a year. 18mths is pretty close to Vietnam.

Your other comment about
"Europe has more mass shootings than the U.S."
We call Europe a continent. It actually has a whole lot countries with a population over twice the USA. A lot of those countries have a lot of civil issues especially in the Eastern Bloc.

If still in denial try this from the NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/upshot/compare-these-gun-death-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html?_r=0
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BobShaw

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2016, 03:31:31 am »

The last link doesn't seem to work well. Try this one. Information is everywhere if you care to read it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

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pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2016, 03:52:02 am »

That was exactly my point. The US road are actually quite safe, it's their drivers who aren't and engage in all kinds of non-driving activities, while cruising at politically correct 60mph.
Sorry I misunderstood you, but indeed we're saying exactly the same.
Btw, the other analogy is that roads, cars, guns, trucks are all "safe". It's only when we (mis)use them unfortunate things are going to happen.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Manoli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2016, 03:53:19 am »

The last link doesn't seem to work well. Try this one. Information is everywhere if you care to read it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

Bob - too good a chart from the NYT article to go unnoticed.
Attached below ..

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pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2016, 03:58:39 am »

Sure.  When someone shouts allahu akbar and starts shooting little kids he's probably just a frustrated Cannon or Nikon shooter registering his disapproval of all those stupid mirrorless camera enthusiasts.  No islamic extremists here.  Just move along.
Not that it matters a whole lot, but the latest news is that on the computer of the Munchen shooter they found a lot of material about Anders Breivik and related right wing mass shootings. Also I've seen nowhere he shouted "alluha akbar". So even though he was from Iranian descend his motivation didn't seem to come from Islamic terrorism. 
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pieter, aka pegelli

tom b

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2016, 04:09:24 am »

Slobodan,

You asked: What is your obsession with America and its guns?

I told you, Australian television is dominated by American television. As I'm retired I get to watch a lot of it. There is a constant onslaught of gunfights, gun crime and brandishing guns.

As an ex teacher this headline "Since 2013, there have been at least 189 school shootings in America — an average of nearly one a week.' is alarming.


As Australia in an English Speaking country most of our news is from Britain and America. So we get to hear a lot from the two nations, there is no need for translation. Britain doesn't have a lot of gun problems. Except for Northern Ireland regular bobbies don't have guns. It does have other problems and Honour Killing is equally upsetting.

Europe has more mass shootings than the U.S.

As I wrote, we get very little news from Europe other than France, Germany and sometimes Italy.

France has had problems for quite some time due to its colonial activities. It has a very volatile population and has had so for a long time.

As I said the rest of Europe is a black hole on Australian television.

A quick look at the figures shows you're right. Eastern Europe seems to be a major problem. Australia has had minimal immigration from Eastern Europe. It doesn't report on it unless a country implodes or something major happens.

To be host if I think about Europe I only think about Western Europe of which nearly all of our European immigrants have come from.

So if you compare all of Europe with the USA then you are correct. If you take out Eastern Europe things seem to be a different.

Gun violence is abhorrent wherever it happens. Gun violence in America gains my attention by the nature of America's dominance of our media. Unfortunately – out of sight, out of mind.

Cheers,




 
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Tom Brown

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2016, 06:13:59 am »

Europe has more mass shootings than the U.S.

Slobodan,

You should know that the Europe is a Continent consists of many (~50) very different countries. The European Union is only a subset (currently 28) of those with, on average, much more developed/educated/wealthy member countries and with lower crimes/homicides/gun accidents/ etc. than the other ones.

So unless you are deliberately trying to cloud the issue, you'd have to be more specific when you talk numbers (and back them up with credible sources).

And as I said before, each (Western) European country has different issues, so you cannot simply add them up and hope to understand the underlying forces from the average. Doing so would be naive, at best. In the USA there are also differences per State, but not all reports show those details, the country average is usually what is given. Europe is not a country, the USA is.

And back to the topic of this thread, as is seems at the moment, the German 18 year old boy had been bullied in school and became a loner. His frustrations with life in Germany (and living in not 'the best' part of it) probably were shaped by that. The reports about his mental state are not clear yet, but some say he had been under psychiatric treatment (including that he himself seemed to have shouted that in response to a man who was verbally arguing with him).

A deranged young man, frustrated with the cards that life dealt to him, is not the same as Islamic Terrorism. As I said, understanding the motivation (the deeper core issues) is important if we want to learn something that allows us to reduce the risk of it happening again. Prevention is cure. Reaction alone, is primitive and unhelpful in the longer term.

Cheers,
Bart
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Rob C

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2016, 06:47:34 am »

Slobodan,

You asked: What is your obsession with America and its guns?

I told you, Australian television is dominated by American television. As I'm retired I get to watch a lot of it. There is a constant onslaught of gunfights, gun crime and brandishing guns.

As an ex teacher this headline "Since 2013, there have been at least 189 school shootings in America — an average of nearly one a week.' is alarming.


As Australia in an English Speaking country most of our news is from Britain and America. So we get to hear a lot from the two nations, there is no need for translation. Britain doesn't have a lot of gun problems. Except for Northern Ireland regular bobbies don't have guns. It does have other problems and Honour Killing is equally upsetting.

Europe has more mass shootings than the U.S.

As I wrote, we get very little news from Europe other than France, Germany and sometimes Italy.

France has had problems for quite some time due to its colonial activities. It has a very volatile population and has had so for a long time.

As I said the rest of Europe is a black hole on Australian television.

A quick look at the figures shows you're right. Eastern Europe seems to be a major problem. Australia has had minimal immigration from Eastern Europe. It doesn't report on it unless a country implodes or something major happens.

To be host if I think about Europe I only think about Western Europe of which nearly all of our European immigrants have come from.

So if you compare all of Europe with the USA then you are correct. If you take out Eastern Europe things seem to be a different.

Gun violence is abhorrent wherever it happens. Gun violence in America gains my attention by the nature of America's dominance of our media. Unfortunately – out of sight, out of mind.

Cheers,

"As I wrote, we get very little news from Europe other than France, Germany and sometimes Italy.

France has had problems for quite some time due to its colonial activities. It has a very volatile population and has had so for a long time.

As I said the rest of Europe is a black hole on Australian television."
.........................................................................................

Tom, if you watch Britain's Sky News you would think that everything that happens happens only in England.

Due to difficulties in getting the alternative BBC programmes on the tv (I have to go to the computer to watch BBC on the monitor, or connect up the cable to the tv in the sitting room), I have also been watch a lot of France 24 via the tv. It gives lots more pan-European news than do the UK stations - so insular - further explaining the easy slide into Brexit: you fear the unknown, and when it's just twenty miles away, there be dragons for sure!

Quite why European news seems so fixated with US elections is beyond me: perhaps it's just cheap tv soaps drama. However, it also shows that Britain is every bit as lousy in its idea of political campaigning as anywhere else: all about ad homs and little about anything else. Probably because all sides know how little they will actually be able to do should it be their turn to find power. Every party gets broken promises stuck in its face, so perhaps they all have become aware of the danger, and just attack each other instead of making more eventual easy ammunition for the other side.

Amazing how nobody even mentions the Liberals (or whatever they called themselves last time I looked), anymore; wouldn't surprise me if this will turn out to be the last throes of traditional Labour and the birth of the new will be a neo-Communist organization. It's already being mooted that the 'left' isn't actually interested in gaining office anymore (explaining broadly unelectable leaders), but absolutely interested in developng a rabid and extreme left. They don't need to win elections: they only need to disrupt the workplace, and have lots of experience and expertise in doing that already. Chaos is the name of the game.

It's said folks get what they let happen to them... as we found out.

jfirneno

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2016, 07:26:42 am »

Also I've seen nowhere he shouted "alluha akbar". So even though he was from Iranian descend his motivation didn't seem to come from Islamic terrorism.

Here's the clip.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/07/22/witness-gunman-killed-children-in-munich-shooting-lead-todd-live.cnn
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jfirneno

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2016, 08:25:34 am »

Here's the clip.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/07/22/witness-gunman-killed-children-in-munich-shooting-lead-todd-live.cnn


In the clip they say that a muslim woman whose son was in the bathroom while the killer was loading his gun reports that he shouted allahu akbar.  Maybe she was mistaken.  Probably what he said was I'm going to kill a bunch of kids because I was bullied by my german neighbors and as a protest against lax american gun laws but make sure you know that this is not gun violence due to european (and australian) gun laws which are highly effective and finally let the record show that I don't approve of ISIS (or ISIL or IS) so don't you dare say that or I'll get really upset.
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pegelli

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2016, 08:48:08 am »

Here's the clip.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/07/22/witness-gunman-killed-children-in-munich-shooting-lead-todd-live.cnn
I haven't heard any of this in the European media and this second piece of eyewitness news from the woman was only told by the anchor man and was not covered in the part with the English female voice and the text running besides it. I give a lot of credibility to the German authorities who have reported the large amount of ultra-right wing mass killing material found in the boys room. But it is certainly possible he's been motivated for his acts by both ultra right wing terrorism as well as Islamic terrorism (or just by mass killings in general). Since he's dead we'll never know for sure I think.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2016, 08:57:57 am »

[The missing word at the end of the quote is "cry" - source: CNN]
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 09:13:19 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: And so it continues....
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2016, 09:02:40 am »

I give a lot of credibility to the German authorities...

That would be the same authorities that tried initially to hide thousands of sexual assaults by refugees during the last New Year street celebrations?
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