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Author Topic: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?  (Read 5774 times)

ralfe89

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Hello,

I use an Eizo CS270 monitor and use the hardware calibration feature with a Spyder 4 Pro.

The Spyder should get replaced with something good. The question is: i1Display Pro or ColorMunki Photo?
I will only use the Eizo ColorNavigator software for the monitor calibration (so the plan).
The Munki would be nice to be able to create custom paper profiles. I own the Pixma Pro 100 and use some papers which no profile exists (Tecco and Bonjet - two papers at the moment).

Thanks for your opinions.
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howardm

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2016, 07:22:58 am »

depending on how many papers you really want custom profiles for, it may be more economical to simply have someone make the profiles for you vs. spending the extra $$ on the CM (or at least here in the US it is)

ralfe89

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016, 07:44:04 am »

The difference here in Germany is about 200€. For a better ICC profile service you pay 35€ (2 A4 pages with 1.426 total patches) or 45€ (6 A4 pages with 4.278 total patches). So at least 4 profiles could I buy for the difference.

Personally, I don't plan to change my papers much. Maybe one extra paper is coming.

Is software wise something special/worth for the i1Display pro compared to Munki+ColorNavigator?
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howardm

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016, 07:56:09 am »

Well, the ColorNavigator will program the Eizo's internal hardware vs. just messing w/ the computer's video card so you really really want to use ColorNavigator.

If you think you'll want to calibrate your TV or other stuff, I think you'll find that the i1Display Pro is supported by more 3rd party software.

ralfe89

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2016, 08:12:00 am »

I don't plan to calibrate more stuff and use my iPad Air 2 and my Plasma TV from Panasonic to see how the pictures will look like on a typical display if they will presented on the web somewhere.

So far I could order the display pro, have good software in case to profile more displays and save bucks. Sounds good :)

Thanks for your opinion.
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howardm

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2016, 08:16:44 am »

Also, I dont know if you guys have rental houses in Germany/EU but here we can rent a ColorMunki Photo for something like $30-40 for several days so you may want to explore that option.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2016, 08:28:32 am »

Hi Ralfe,

I would recommend buying an i1Display Pro provided it is compatible with your Eizo's ColorNavigator software, graphics card and OS versions, and getting custom profiles made for the few printing papers you use most of the time. The 1400 patch version should be fine as far as patch numbers go, but the more important issue is the quality of the spectrophotometer and profiling software the service is using for making the paper profiles. Check what they are using and their reputation for delivering quality profiles before buying. As well, the manner in which you prepare the targets for the profile creation is critical regardless of whether you profile yourself or send the targets to an external service for profile creation - in particular ALL colour management in the printer and the operating system needs to be turned off (safest way of making targets is the Adobe Color Print Utility - ACPU for short - available for download on the Adobe website. The targets should be left to dry over night in open air before using or sending them. The choice of Media Type for printing the targets must be the same one you will use for making the prints with those profiles. With these precautions in mind you should be OK.
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ralfe89

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2016, 08:40:43 am »

Renting of color management devices is here rare, so far as I know. One dealer offers for 50€ the i2 pro2 photo suite but only in the stores...
I think I make a good deal with the i1 display pro and save the rest.

Regarding the ICC profile service: The provider I have select (monochrom.com) and they use the i1 profiler software and charts for the profile creation and it looks like they use i1 pro photo device. So far so good I think.
If someone has a recommendation for a German ICC service provider, please let me know.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2016, 08:58:31 am »

If they are using an i1Pro 2 or latest iSis and the most recent i1Profiler software that allows them to properly take into account any optical brightening agents in the papers, that should be fine.
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howardm

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2016, 09:50:49 am »

They *could* take OBAs into account but I'm not aware of most any profile maker (possibly AndrewR excluded) that actually does since it requires additional printing of the OBA targets and visual analysis under the lamp/spectrum that the paper will be displayed under.  Every profile maker I've seen offers the same 'send in 1-2-3 sheets, we'll measure them and email you the results' w/o additional OBA analysis or optimization step.  Before I got my i1Pro, none of the profile makers I spoke had ever used (or even had a request for) a different illuminant (ie. not D50)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2016, 10:10:15 am »

They *could* take OBAs into account but I'm not aware of most any profile maker (possibly AndrewR excluded) that actually does since it requires additional printing of the OBA targets and visual analysis under the lamp/spectrum that the paper will be displayed under.  Every profile maker I've seen offers the same 'send in 1-2-3 sheets, we'll measure them and email you the results' w/o additional OBA analysis or optimization step.  Before I got my i1Pro, none of the profile makers I spoke had ever used (or even had a request for) a different illuminant (ie. not D50)

Howard, I'm not licensed to provide profiles to third parties so I don't, but when I make my own I am mindful of the "M" factor because it makes a difference to profile quality and that of course is why in the latest versions of the i1Pro system X-Rite provides these options. It does not require additional printing of any targets. When creating the profile one selects whether to use single or dual scan for the same target. Selecting dual scan mode simply means making two passes over each row of the target instead of one. That gives the software all the information it needs to create M0, M1 and M2 versions of the profile. One selects which to use based on testing which provides the most accurate result. Further detail is available here: i1Pro2-i1Profiler Review
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howardm

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2016, 10:31:48 am »

From that review..........

After creating an ICC profile, the OBC module generates another target of colored patches, which are measured using the dual scanning process. This data is used to generate a Gray Evaluation Chart target, which is then printed and allowed to dry down. This target is used as visual reference once placed under the print viewing illuminant. There are four gray densities, each containing 19 patches, which vary in the yellow to blue axis. The Gray Evaluation Chart is placed over these gray patches, and one selects which printed color produce the best visual match of the Gray Evaluation Chart. Those values are then entered into the OBC software module. i1Profiler re-generates a new ICC profile that compensates for the OBA’s in the paper under a specific illuminant. The results, depending on the amount of UV in the print viewing illuminant and OBA’s in the paper is subtle but very effective. This is a better approach to dealing with UV and OBA’s than simply deciding to filter measurement data as this approach is based upon colorimetry and a visual assessment of the print viewing conditions. Note that this process is intended for a single print viewing condition. If you deal with papers high in OBA’s that will be seen in many different viewing conditions, you may want to select a different paper. While modern color management tools like the OBC module are very useful, papers high in OBA’s should be avoided when possible.

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2016, 10:49:00 am »

That's one approach. Another is to let the software make the three profiles available from the data collected in the dual scan mode, and then test those profiles for accuracy using a target like the GMCC with known reference values for the 24 patches. One does end-up printing a different evaluation target, but not for making the profiles. They are already made.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2016, 02:55:54 pm »

From that review..........

After creating an ICC profile, the OBC module generates another target of colored patches, which are measured using the dual scanning process. This data is used to generate a Gray Evaluation Chart target, which is then printed and allowed to dry down. This target is used as visual reference once placed under the print viewing illuminant. There are four gray densities, each containing 19 patches, which vary in the yellow to blue axis. The Gray Evaluation Chart is placed over these gray patches, and one selects which printed color produce the best visual match of the Gray Evaluation Chart. Those values are then entered into the OBC software module. i1Profiler re-generates a new ICC profile that compensates for the OBA’s in the paper under a specific illuminant. The results, depending on the amount of UV in the print viewing illuminant and OBA’s in the paper is subtle but very effective. This is a better approach to dealing with UV and OBA’s than simply deciding to filter measurement data as this approach is based upon colorimetry and a visual assessment of the print viewing conditions. Note that this process is intended for a single print viewing condition. If you deal with papers high in OBA’s that will be seen in many different viewing conditions, you may want to select a different paper. While modern color management tools like the OBC module are very useful, papers high in OBA’s should be avoided when possible.

That is really a great tool X-Rite provides. But, as the article points out, if you have a lot of OBs, it only works for one particular illuminant's uV level. It also is especially helpful where a printer doesn't use neutral gray inks and has to create lighter neutrals using CYM. They can produce pretty big shifts from high levels of OB under varying uV. These days I generally just use M2 profiles since my viewing booth has pretty low levels of uV and most of my printing is with low OB paper anyway. Also, I typically use uV cut, anti-reflective glass for critical print display. Mostly for the increased fade resistance.
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alain

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2016, 04:05:01 pm »

The i1Display Pro  get's very good ratings and seems to be superior for display calibration.

For recent results for the idisplay pro and some others from Czornyj :
 
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=110118.msg906300#msg906300

Another source for colour profiles (http://colourprofiles.com/) in GB, according the website no new profiles until august.   I have used it before and the profiles behave good.

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ralfe89

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2016, 06:08:17 pm »

Thanks for the additional replies, especially the possibility of OBA handling is very interesting. That's something I'll ask the possible services how they create the profiles in detail. That will bring some interesting insights for sure.
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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2016, 03:12:08 am »

This is a better approach to dealing with UV and OBA’s than simply deciding to filter measurement data as this approach is based upon colorimetry and a visual assessment of the print viewing conditions.
Another approach is to measure the illuminant, rather than printing out test samples and making a visual assessment.
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ralfe89

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2016, 12:52:40 pm »

I've got today my i1 Display Pro and used my vacation to move to Windows 10 now. Installed today fresh ColorNavigator and pluged in i1 and created my custom profile target: 120cm/m², 5500K, native color gamut, Eizo DUE set to graybalance, Black level set at 0.3 cd/m².

Profile validation with ISO 12646 from ColorNavigator got CIE2000 deltas 0.29 (mean value) / 0.80 (max) / 0.09 (white). This is better as the values from the Spyder. The exact numbers are gone with the old Windows installation.
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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2016, 03:05:35 pm »

Profile validation with ISO 12646 from ColorNavigator got CIE2000 deltas 0.29 (mean value) / 0.80 (max) / 0.09 (white). This is better as the values from the Spyder. The exact numbers are gone with the old Windows installation.
Those reports are not all that useful! If you're getting a good screen to print match, that's key.

The reports are more a feel good experience. Such tests are usually designed by the calibration/profile software to make themselves look good. First off, how many colors and where in color space are the patches? Dark, saturated colors are difficult to hit so we rarely see them used. Next, you're using the same software and instrument to conduct the test which isn't ideal. It's far better to use a known, better reference instrument to do the measurements because if the instrument you use for the profile is the same used to test the accuracy, how do you know the report is Kosher? If there are errors in the instrument, it's not going to tell you.

Analogy: You need to measure a foundation for a garage and it needs to be exactly 21 feet, 5 inches. You believe your foot is 12 inches so you use it to figure out the distance for the foundation. It doesn't matter how many times you remeasure, you get the same results. You feel good about this. Then a contractor shows up with a ruler and we find out your foot isn't 12 inches, it's 11.3 inches in length. Having a known reference (the ruler) who's accuracy is sound tells us the first set of measurements is off. Now how accurate the reference measurement device is plays a role of course. Does the foundation have to be correct within 1 inch, 1/10 of an inch?  1/1000 of an inch? If someone measures your foot with a super-duper laser that cost $25K who's accuracy is within 1/10000 of an inch and we find the ruler is inaccurate by 1/100 of an inch, is that important? Probably not. But the ruler that was off 1/100 of an inch is far more accurate than your foot. And using your foot over and over again provides the same, inaccurate report. So how useful is that?

Then we are measuring one area in the center of the display. What about each corner? Again, the dE reports provided by the software is probably useful when you see a really large dE (well over say 6). That could indicate something went sour when you were calibrating/profiling. The screen saver came on, the software barfed, the instrument fell off the screen of some large amount of ambient light was measured. If the dE report is that high, you'd probably notice it anyway. So take the report with a grain of salt.

Now what IS useful is trending! That's where the same product reports the results over the course of a year. It tells you how often the display has changed if you calibrated every two weeks and by how much. It could be useful in deciding that instead of having to recalibrate every two weeks, you can get by once a month, or maybe you need to do this every few days. The inaccuracy of the device compared to a reference isn't a factor as long as the consistency in it's measurements is good.
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ralfe89

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Re: Eizo ColorEdge monitor and x-rite i1display pro or ColorMunki Photo?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2016, 04:29:17 pm »

For me the end result is key and this is covered. For that I didn't see a change between the i1 display pro and my Spyder 4 Pro. So far the only results shown in these validation reports. Do I weight these reports much? Nope.
So much as a first impression from a mover away from Spyder.

And yeah, your comparison is well understood - good written for everybody.
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