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Author Topic: A Resounding Flush of Socialism  (Read 13176 times)

Chris_Brown

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2016, 05:36:08 pm »

Looks like you triggered someone, John.

https://youtu.be/yCtv4O9tv1g
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John Koerner

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2016, 05:39:04 pm »

I'll dance with you.

Not sure that's what I asked for ...



What are you advocating exactly?  Elimination of antibiotics?  Surgery? All medicine?

I said no such thing.

This is the typical "straw man" people try to build in order to "say something" ... rather than just read, and accept, the truth.

Surgery and medicine are useful tools for those who so order their lives, and daily choices, that they can provide these things for themselves.



Or are you just advocating typical Randian nonsense that equates quality of life and value of the individual with their bottom line?

No, this is just more of your own nonsense that you've added, tainting the actual message again, just to "say something" and confound the issue.



Because I agree with your idea that overpopulation is the biggest problem we face.

Then just say, "I agree."



It's what I think your answers are proposing that I find unconscionable...

What other "answer" to overpopulation would you suggest, then, if not to allow those who cannot survive (or who have failed to so order their lives in such a way as to provide for themselves) to pass on?

That is HOW you deal with overpopulation ... by letting the unfit pass on ...

Right now, most systems of government are keeping the unfit around, providing for all their needs, and thereby enabling them to produce more of the same.

Denial isn't rebuttal; it is only denial.
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John Koerner

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2016, 06:00:10 pm »

Let me add that it is even worse than that: our government encourages the unfit to produce "more of the same" ... by giving out "more money" for "more children produced" ... which proceeds are given to those who cannot (usually will not) work for and support themselves.

I am sorry, but this is insane.

We have literally created a "survival of the unfittest" paradigm, that is contrary to nature, and that is a downward-spiral of descent into a world FILLED with people who cannot take care of themselves, think that government "owes them" a livelihood (education and health care), and so must be "cared for" by those of us who do work and enable them via forced socialism.

Watch the video again. Whatever "good intentions" forced caring for others may have, it has disastrous results in the long-term.
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James Clark

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2016, 06:01:38 pm »



Quote from: John Koerner
I said no such thing.

This is the typical "straw man" people try to build in order to "say something" ... rather than just read, and accept, the truth.

Surgery and medicine are useful tools for those who so order their lives, and daily choices, that they can provide these things for themselves.

Not a straw man, and certainly not just "saying something." I'm asking for clarification on to what extent you feel that overpopulation ought to be solved by allowing nature to take its course.  The answer seems to be that you're fine with allowing as many people to live as can manage without inconveniencing yourself, which is about what I suspected.  That has nothing, by the way, to do with a natural balance of what's good for the ecology or our natural resources.



Quote from: John Koerner
No, this is just more of your own nonsense that you've added, tainting the actual message again, just to "say something" and confound the issue.

See above.  It's not nonsense.  You made an argument against acting in a humanitarian fashion, but dishonestly disguised it as a claim of supporting the natural order.  Which, not coincidentally, places your good above that of others you deem less worthy. 



Quote from: John Koerner
Then just say, "I agree."
I agree only with the premise that overpopulation is a massive threat to our survival.



Quote from: John Koerner
What other "answer" to overpopulation would you suggest, then, if not to allow those who cannot survive (or who have failed to so order their lives in such a way as to provide for themselves) to pass on?

That is HOW you deal with overpopulation ... by letting the unfit pass on ...

Right now, most systems of government are keeping the unfit around, providing for all their needs, and thereby enabling them to produce more of the same.

There are a variety of ways on control population beyond allowing suffering of those already alive. They range from the reasonable - incentives against high birth rates - to the authoritarian (China's "one child" policy) to the generally unaccepted ideas about eugenics and state regulated selective breeding.
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John Koerner

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2016, 06:06:04 pm »

They range from the reasonable - incentives against high birth rates - to the authoritarian (China's "one child" policy) to the generally unaccepted ideas about eugenics and state regulated selective breeding.

I think forced numbers of child-bearing are reasonable, based on income.

Right now, anyone with a sex drive can produce children, whether or not they can afford to have them (or even take care of themselves).

Right now, the more children a jobless woman has, the more money she's given ... when, instead, she should be criminally-charged for gross negligence.

In this country, you can build a business, and drive a car, BUT YOU NEED A LICENSE (and to prove a basic level of fitness/competence) in order to do so.

And so should it be with rasing children.

People should need (and have to qualify for) the right to have children ... rather than just produce them and produce them and produce them ... with no income, education, etc. ... ONLY because our government will provide for them.

It wouldn't work that way in nature ... those offspring wouldn't make it.
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James Clark

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2016, 06:08:34 pm »

I think forced numbers of child-bearing are reasonable, based on income.

Right now, anyone with a sex drive can produce children, whether or not they can afford to have them (or even take care of themselves).

Right now, the more children a jobless woman has, the more money she's given ... when, instead, she should be criminally-charged for gross negligence.

In this country, you can build a business, and drive a car, BUT YOU NEED A LICENSE (and to prove a basic level of fitness/competence) in order to do so.

And so should it be with rasing children.

People should need (and have to qualify for) the right to have children ... rather than just produce them and produce them and produce them ... with no income, education, etc. ... ONLY because our government will provide for them.

It wouldn't work that way in nature ... those offspring wouldn't make it.

I can agree with much of this, though I think you're overstating the incentive government provides to have more and more kids.  The people that think they're coming out ahead, I think probably are not.

I've had similar arguments with people that are against, for example, letting same-sex couples adopt children but have no problem with practically unlimited child bearing by comparatively wholly unfit "traditional" parents.
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John Koerner

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2016, 06:25:19 pm »

I can agree with much of this, though I think you're overstating the incentive government provides to have more and more kids.  The people that think they're coming out ahead, I think probably are not.

I'm not over-stating, and I think we basically agree.

While I concur that no one who lives off government tax money will achieve the level of success an entrepreneur achieves, the flipside is many have better lives than hard-working lower-middle-class, because they have absolutely everything paid for by our taxes.

For example, I just dealt with a habitability claim (allegation the apartment was unfit). The woman hadn't paid for her rent in 6 months, because she saw a couple of roaches. Now she has an attorney suing for "pain and suffering" of seeing these roaches ...

When I interviewed co-tenants, they all said 1) she has 3 kids, 2) she has no job, and 3) that she just moved to a NEW apartment, free of charge, all funded by US Taxpayer money of course ...

It is sickening what we allow to occur. That woman is nothing but a GD parasite, on every level possible, because of how our socialist "helping the unfit" system is set up.

She is a criminal IMO ... and one of millions of that culture and mindset.



I've had similar arguments with people that are against, for example, letting same-sex couples adopt children but have no problem with practically unlimited child bearing by comparatively wholly unfit "traditional" parents.

The biological equipment to produce children is not enough.

There should be the same strict set of standards to produce children as are in place to adopt children, as the responsibility (and financial + life-stability) commitments are the same.

My last post,

Jack
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Justinr

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2016, 06:28:06 pm »

I'm not over-stating, and I think we basically agree.

While I concur that no one who lives off government tax money will achieve the level of success an entrepreneur achieves, the flipside is many have better lives than hard-working lower-middle-class, because they have absolutely everything paid for by our taxes.

For example, I just dealt with a habitability claim (allegation the apartment was unfit). The woman hadn't paid for her rent in 6 months, because she saw a couple of roaches. Now has an attorney suing for "pain and suffering" ...

When I interviewed co-tenants, they all said 1) she has 3 kids, 2) no job, and 3) that she just moved to a NEW apartment, free of charge, all funded by US Taxpayer money of course ...

It is sickening what we allow to occur. That woman is nothing but a GD parasite, on every level possible, because of how our socialist "helping the unfit" system is set up.

She is a criminal IMO ... and one of millions of that culture and mindset.



The biological equipment to produce children is not enough.

There should be the same strict set of standards to produce children as are in place to adopt children, as the responsibility (and financial + life-stability) commitments are the same.

My last post,


Jack

Yippee!
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2016, 09:45:20 am »

The best thing that can happen is for government to stop trying to defy nature.

In nature, what refuses (or can't) provide for itself dies, ridding the ecosystem of its presence and leaving only fit individuals to carry on.

In our "socialist" societies, the unfit are fed, cared-for, and kept alive ... spreading (and multiplying themselves) through artificial advantages ... only because the fit (those who actually work, pay taxes, etc.) are forced to KEEP the unfit alive, further multiplying their masses.

The entire premise of "survival of the fittest" is turned on its head, reversed, and thus socialism promulgates survival of the UNfittest.

It is a blight on this world, and contrary to every principle known to nature.

Could you possibly offer some helpful information like how we're going to stop corporate welfare with the oil companies and industrialized agribusinesses?

Or maybe this is what you should be reading as your final solution for insuring the survival of the fittest...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2016, 09:57:42 am »

Yippee!

+1

Can't wait for Jack to lock (blaming it on the moderators) yet another one of the threads he started, threads which often/mostly seem intended as flame bait, certainly not for discussion.

Cheers,
Bart
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Rob C

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2016, 10:12:00 am »

Tim, I think that link's a bit unfair.

The problem is that John's right, but the mechanisms don't exist for making the changes easily and without pain. There's absolutely no doubt that the more people get the more they expect; that starts before kids go to school, depending on the parents and how they choose to bring them up. It's not simply a matter of sponging off the State, the same thing happens with kids sponging off their rich parents. You don't have to go to LA to see it: try Glasgow, one of the least likely places you'd imagine to see spoiled 17-year-old brats driving sports cars around school streets. The entitlement culture hits both ends of the financial spectrum, difference being that one lot use your tax money, the other their parents' wodge. That's up to them, obviously, but the effect on the kids is just as bad. Especiallly if they have no spark of intelligence and/or guile by which to earn their own version of the lifestyle to which they grew accustomed at home.

Insofar as sorting the wider, public social financing problems all governments face, I'd suggest they start by actually encouraging the use of free condoms to anyone who wants them. In the long run save a lot of damaged people from happening. Children that already exist? Introduce a deadline beyond which no further state aid becomes available to children conceived beyond the ones in place during the existing allowances regimes. In effect, still bloody expensive bringing up somebody else's kids, but with the clear warning that the game's up from a set date in the future: you want 'em, you pay for 'em. Even our bleeding hearts would find that difficult to argue against... but I don't know, some here would, simply out of habit and chronic tunnel vision aligned with a highly developed sense for the freeload ethic. Turkeys and Christmas votes, I guess.

Doing nothing isn't an option, but unfortunately that's what'll happen.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2016, 10:16:57 am »

+1

Can't wait for Jack to lock (blaming it on the moderators) yet another one of the threads he started, threads which often/mostly seem intended as flame bait, certainly not for discussion.

Cheers,
Bart


Bart, help me out: I'm looking for your previous post in this thread but can't seem to find it.

;-)

Rob C

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2016, 10:48:22 am »


Bart, help me out: I'm looking for your previous post in this thread but can't seem to find it.

;-)

Sure Rob,

There was no previous post of mine in this thread, since it is useless to discuss with someone, like the OP, who is not open for other views, nuance, reason, empathy, etc.

He stated his opinion, I don't agree with most of it, and that's about all that can be said. There is no basis provided for a discussion (e.g. a credible report used to form an opinion, or better multiple reports leading to different views on the matter). That's why he often rebuts with, you are wrong. No coherent thought process (no historical/cultural perspective, nothing) to be detected, just some opinions. Dogmas start where thinking (and open discussion) stops.

He doesn't even start to explain what variety of Socialism (he possibly confuses that with Communism), or Capitalism he's talking about. So therefore it sounds more like flame-bait than something worth responding to. I tend to not feeding the trolls.

Cheers,
Bart
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jeremyrh

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2016, 02:03:35 pm »

Guys, guys - don't feed the troll.
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BradSmith

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2016, 03:51:06 pm »

This thread almost makes me want Koerner to go back to writing ad nauseum about the Nikon D500.
Brad
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Rob C

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2016, 04:04:28 pm »

Guys, guys - don't feed the troll.


Too easy, too easy: consider the subject he's impassioned with. Ignoring it, disapproving of it, neither will make the reality less visible and expensive, and it most certainly won't go away of its own accord. It will only grow.

Thing is, there truly has been a helluva drop in people feeling responsibility for their own actions over the past few decades. There was always immorality, but it used to be accompanied by retribution and/or remorse. Today, there's very little of anything like that. You need read no further than these threads to see for yourself that people think that 'freedom' equates with the 'right' to screw everybody else, do as you please, and escape the financial consequences by dumping everything onto the State, meaning the shoulders of those still working to pay their way.

Ain't pretty, but there you go. Denial changes nothing, and shooting the messenger leaves the problem untouched.

Rob

jeremyrh

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2016, 04:46:40 pm »

and shooting the messenger leaves the problem untouched.

Not shooting anyone - just not getting sucked into a pointless mud-wrestling contest.
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John Koerner

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2016, 04:49:56 pm »

Too easy, too easy: consider the subject he's impassioned with. Ignoring it, disapproving of it, neither will make the reality less visible and expensive, and it most certainly won't go away of its own accord. It will only grow.

We agree, Rob.

The masses see nothing, understand nothing.

There is no animal that has ever existed, in all the world's history, that has left such a devastating footprint of destruction on our planet as has mankind.

Even from outer space, man's devastating effects can be seen: lights, structures, roadways, etc.
This has never happened with any other life form, so affecting our world as to see the affects from space.

Philosophically, the surface of the earth can be likened to the skin of a dog.
When a dog has a healthy coat, its fur shines and flourishes.
By contrast, when unhealthy (or afflicted by mange), the hair on a dog disappears and is replaced by scabbing, crust, exema, etc.

The same is true with our planet: when healthy, grasses, trees, and rivers flourish.
By contrast, when unhealthy, trees and grasses die, water dissipates, and "bald patches" prevail.

What most people are too blind to see is, our buildings, concrete structures, roadways, etc. are crust-like pustules to the face of this earth, proof of its unhealthy state.
Our very activity on the earth's surface is like the activity of mange-mites on the hide of a dog: festering, erupting, infecting.
The blind can't see it as such, same as mange-mites can't see what they're doing to the dog, but that is exactly the truth of the matter of what we're doing to our planet.

People look at a city-scape of New York and think, "Progress."
I look at a city-scape of New York and think, "Every bit of Nature, destroyed."

Of course, and again, the blind can't see it as such, being the living mange-mites creating this condition, but MANY top scientists will tell you that the earth is a sick, slowly-dying organism, and human overpopulation (infection) is the cause of it.

But, as a great philosopher once said, "These are delicate, distant matters ... they should not be reached-for by sheeps' hooves."

Famed BBC naturalist, Sire David Attenborough, agrees.

All anyone has to do is Google "Human Overpopulation," and again and again they can find scientists warning of this peril.

I know I said I wouldn't post on the subject again, but felt the need to make a final comment.

The prophesies warn of "The Seven Plagues," yet the great irony is that neither locusts, mice, nor any other vermin are the true plagues of this planet; in point of fact MAN is The Plague of this Earth==the deadliest, most destructive, hardest-to-eradicate pestilence to ever to infect our world. Every other life form on earth is dwindling, while mankind is increasing. But, here again, we don't see it as such.

And "why" is this happening?

Because we keep alive the UNfit ... we create programs to "keep the unworthy alive," to "provide for their needs," rather than allowing them to pass on, which would happen in Nature, and through this artificial sustenance we thereby ensure the unfit will not only survive but propagate more of the same.

This practice is contrary to nature.
It is not life-affirming; it is life-destroying ... because it saps all of the world's resources in order to sustain the volume of needs thereby created.

I could go on forever, but (for the most part) I realize that the "pearls and swine" maxim will inevitably apply.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: A Resounding Flush of Socialism
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2016, 05:29:45 pm »

Ahhhh [OINK] this piggy says that taking a longer view, the problem you wrestle with is self-correcting.

After all, suicide is painless

Hulyss

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Re: A Resounding Flush of crazyness
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2016, 05:42:48 pm »

Jhon, hoo Jhon...

You think you see the big picture but your far away from it. Nature will survive us, no worry. We might destroy a load of thing before our biological extinction but nature will survive. Life will prosper again, even if tomorrow a meteor hit us and destroy everything.

Thing is many have a problem with death. Many have faith in something and have less problem with it. When we die, anyway, it is alone, it is hard and scary. This feeling is common to most animals, probably some plants too, we do not know.

On the other hand we are close, civilisation wise, to the eternal life. In a century or two, if we do not kill ourself before and if capitalism and technology and moor's law continue to exist, we might give an another answer to death. Burial traditions will change drastically.

Burial traditions is what define the Homo genre. Sensitivity and art too.

If I tell you that one day you'll be able in about a year to transfer your conciousness into a machine, what would you think ? Because this is where we are heading.

We will have the choice. Transfer or not ?

Before that we will go through all the social problems we can imagine. The technology will be accessible only for riches then will be hacked then will be accessible for everybody blablabla.

We are conqueror Jhon. HUMANS ARE CONQUEROR. They start to degenerate when they have nothing to conquer any-more.

Space is the key, and the only way for us to travel trough space is under a mineral form, not a biological form.

Keep that in mind and sleep well.
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