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Author Topic: The Turkish Military take over.  (Read 16290 times)

MattBurt

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2016, 06:13:34 pm »

Banned, for the photographers, or the models?

Cheers,
Bart

The Muslim mayor of London is worried about how body shaming ads affect young women.
http://www.snopes.com/londons-mayor-bans-sexy-images/

The fact that he is Muslim plays out nicely for those who want to misconstrue this and is otherwise irrelevant.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 06:17:22 pm by MattBurt »
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Justinr

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2016, 06:15:29 pm »

As the events develop, it more and more looks like another Reichstag fire.

Another train of thought that is emerging is that the coup was planned for later but had to be bought forward due to a fear of the plot being betrayed, this would account for it appearing to go off at half cock.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2016, 06:27:58 pm »

Another train of thought that is emerging is that the coup was planned for later but had to be bought forward due to a fear of the plot being betrayed, this would account for it appearing to go off at half cock.

Turkish military is said to be highly capable, not to mention rather experienced in coups and running the country. It is then hard to believe they would stage such a half-ass attempt.

rwhart

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2016, 06:37:09 pm »

Things, they might be a'changin

Turkey coup could threaten country's Nato membership, suggests John Kerry

State Department says Nato is monitoring how the Turkish government responds to the failed coup. Members of the alliance are required to 'uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity'


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-could-threaten-countrys-nato-membership-john-kerry-warns-a7142491.html

There has been a slow but steady march toward a caliphate in Turkey led by Erdogan.  He is amassing power to himself and a few cronies.  Like far too many of the emerging countries cronyism is rampant.

The mid level, it seems, was fed up with watching their democracy decay into an Islamic State.  Does anyone really think that there is not a reason why Erdogan is more concerned with Assad than he is with ISIS.  Why else would he continually allow ISIS and other radical groups to operate in Turkey unless they were in any way from a Kurdish background.

Turkey of today is a divided country.  A great number of Turks long for the liberal society that Ataturk brought about and hoped to perpetuate in the Constitution.  However after 10 years in power, Erdogan is slowing growing a younger set of young people full of Islamic fervor who will not keep with the tolerant society that once was.  Erdogan does not protect Christian sects and is bent on the destruction of all Kurdish culture while continuing to refuse to accept the Armenian Genocice.

The fact that we lavish money and support on the current Turkish Government hoping they will play nice is just wrong headed.  Merkel and the rest of the Eurozone are deluding themselves.  Obama is too far to the left to even dream of a proper response.

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Justinr

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2016, 06:47:08 pm »

Turkish military is said to be highly capable, not to mention rather experienced in coups and running the country. It is then hard to believe they would stage such a half-ass attempt.

I believe that he had already had a good purge of the generals that he considered disloyal so the expertise may not have been there.
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Rob C

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2016, 05:50:27 am »

The older I get the more I tend to believe that this will all end up with a world divided into about three fairly distinct sections: the West, possibly including Russia; the Middle East with parts of Africa; Eastern Asia and the Pacific.

Oil will be relegated to worthlessness - I'm sure it's already long been scientifically possible - and strict borders will exist, with routine deportations being the norm if people living in the 'wrong' zone start to play games.

In the end, it seems ethnic/religious divides are proving to be too basic and powerful to permit true coexistence in any kind of workable harmony. The astonishing thing is that anyone was ever naive enough to think otherwise.

Rob C
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 11:26:38 am by Rob C »
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Photog-x

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2016, 07:26:37 am »

The older I get the more I tend to believe that this will all end up with a world divided into about three fairly distinct sections: the West, possibly including Russia; the Middle East with parts of Africa; Eastern Asia and the Pacific.

Oil will be relegated to worthlessness - I'm sure it's already long been scientifically possible - and strict borders will exist, with routine deportations being the norm if people living in the 'wrong' zone start to play games.

In the end, it seems thnic/religious divides are proving to be too basic and powerful to permit true coexistence in any kind of workable harmony. The astonishing thing is that anyone was ever naive enough to think otherwise.

Rob C

That Utopian society we see on Star Trek seems really nice and I'd love to have that, but come on...we're human beings and unfortunately, human beings always seem to have a group that wants to take advantage of others and have power over them in some way.  Think about it...why do we even need police or a military?  If people would just behave themselves and do the right thing, there would never be a need for guns and armies.  The only reason I support a strong military right now is because I know for a fact other people would try to enforce their religious or political beliefs on me/us if we didn't have a way to defend ourselves and our freedom to live as we wish.  Everyone deserves to live in peace and live the lifestyle they enjoy (as long as it's not oppressing other people). 

Personally, I think it's time to get VERY serious about enforcing civility and rule or law.  I'm not talking about another episode of Star Trek or Stargate SG-1 where the crew comes across what seems like a great society but then they realize the regime in charge is ruthlessly oppressive and disallows any dissent.  No, I'm talking about putting an end to violence completely and an end to individuals becoming dictators and forcing their views and lifestyle on others. 

What I'd rather see is an absolute intolerance of violence and other groups forcing their lifestyle/religion on other people.  Basically, we all get to live in peace AND live as we desire to live...and if someone comes along and wants to ruin it for the rest of us because they're intolerant of opposing views or just plain violent, then that person will disappear from society.  Forced peace and tranquility?   I don't know what you'd call it, but I think it would be fair and no one would have the right to oppress anyone else or ruin someone else's life.  My view may seem a little harsh, but it's fair and the only people I can see that would be opposed to it is those that would want to force their lifestyle or religion on others.   Why would anyone be opposed to being able to live as you wish and never having to be afraid of violence (rape, murder, assault, etc).   

Anyway, we're human so I don't see an end to the nonsense that's going on every day in our communities around the world. 

stamper

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2016, 10:28:25 am »

That Utopian society we see on Star Trek seems really nice and I'd love to have that, but come on...we're human beings and unfortunately, human beings always seem to have a group that wants to take advantage of others and have power over them in some way.  Think about it...why do we even need police or a military?  If people would just behave themselves and do the right thing, there would never be a need for guns and armies.  The only reason I support a strong military right now is because I know for a fact other people would try to enforce their religious or political beliefs on me/us if we didn't have a way to defend ourselves and our freedom to live as we wish.  Everyone deserves to live in peace and live the lifestyle they enjoy (as long as it's not oppressing other people). 

Personally, I think it's time to get VERY serious about enforcing civility and rule or law.  I'm not talking about another episode of Star Trek or Stargate SG-1 where the crew comes across what seems like a great society but then they realize the regime in charge is ruthlessly oppressive and disallows any dissent.  No, I'm talking about putting an end to violence completely and an end to individuals becoming dictators and forcing their views and lifestyle on others. 

What I'd rather see is an absolute intolerance of violence and other groups forcing their lifestyle/religion on other people.  Basically, we all get to live in peace AND live as we desire to live...and if someone comes along and wants to ruin it for the rest of us because they're intolerant of opposing views or just plain violent, then that person will disappear from society.  Forced peace and tranquility?   I don't know what you'd call it, but I think it would be fair and no one would have the right to oppress anyone else or ruin someone else's life.  My view may seem a little harsh, but it's fair and the only people I can see that would be opposed to it is those that would want to force their lifestyle or religion on others.   Why would anyone be opposed to being able to live as you wish and never having to be afraid of violence (rape, murder, assault, etc).   

Anyway, we're human so I don't see an end to the nonsense that's going on every day in our communities around the world. 

Delusional.

Photog-x

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2016, 10:34:03 am »

Delusional.

You're welcome to live with the people that do nothing but bring misery to society if you want to.  I'd rather not. 

stamper

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2016, 10:52:41 am »

You're welcome to live with the people that do nothing but bring misery to society if you want to.  I'd rather not. 


You are advocating the use of extreme violence in order to bring peace? It doesn't work. At the moment Turkey is using extreme violence against it's citizens in order to bring peace. Will it work?

Photog-x

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2016, 10:57:47 am »

You are advocating the use of extreme violence in order to bring peace? It doesn't work. At the moment Turkey is using extreme violence against it's citizens in order to bring peace. Will it work?

No they aren't.  They're using violence to oppress free will/personal freedom and an opposing view. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2016, 11:10:26 am »

You are advocating the use of extreme violence in order to bring peace? It doesn't work. ...

Oh, yes it does. Just ask Japan.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2016, 11:18:11 am »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.   Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.

MattBurt

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2016, 11:22:02 am »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.   Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.

I was going to say the same thing. As much as a nice orderly society without violence sounds, this business of eliminating disruptors is a slippery slope at best. Makes me think of Ray Bradbury stories.
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Photog-x

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2016, 11:23:27 am »

Anyway, I realize what I said it just fantasy, but my point is....wouldn't it be nice to not have to live with people ruin our lives?   Humans are flawed and we're always going to have bad apples in the bunch.   In reality, most all of us agree much more than we disagree.  There's simply a disagreement on how to deal with people that refuse to behave and do their fair share.  Fair share, meaning, be a nice person and at least try to be productive.  If you can't even try to be productive, at least don't go out and ruin someone else's life.

Rob C

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2016, 11:37:11 am »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.   Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.


And therein the elephantine flaw: it should be rephrased as "what did it do for the people of Iraq and Libya?"

Just who the eff do we think we are telling other lands how to run themselves? In the end, one can't honestly blame some of them for seeing us as the villains of the piece. Exporting our ideas of societal and religious perfection is every bit as bad at the opposite coming our way. Does anyone imagine Christian missionaries were instantly beloved anywhere? Did the destruction of native innocence really achieve a lot for said natives? Apart from giving them VD and all sorts of other illnesses they never had before.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 11:47:10 am by Rob C »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2016, 11:39:28 am »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.   Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.

True, but that's meddling in other countries' affairs, different story. Neither country was a source of massive, world-wide terrorism, nor attacking the U.S.

Rob C

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2016, 11:44:50 am »

The Muslim mayor of London is worried about how body shaming ads affect young women.
http://www.snopes.com/londons-mayor-bans-sexy-images/

The fact that he is Muslim plays out nicely for those who want to misconstrue this and is otherwise irrelevant.

Unless, of course, you happoen to be an advertising photographer or a model. But we don't count when it comes to the values of the alien cultures.

Why do you think there's so much hatred in Germany and France over the Islamification of their countries? First reason, before you even touch on religious ideology, is the perception of the new reality which is that the indigenous people are having their lives, social mores and ways altered to suit the ways of newcomers. Uh uh. That ain't gonna fly long-term unless things go very wrong indeed. Which in a weak society they well might.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2016, 11:52:22 am »

There are people on the left and on the right who think they have all the answers for what makes the best society. In America we have a Constitution that protects everyone's personal beliefs and actions (within certain limits) even when the majority or the government wants to enforce their will on the rest of us.   Judges must be impeached.   They cannot be removed and replaced with loyalists by executive fiat as is happening in Turkey.   While the President is Commander-in-chief,   generals and admirals are  promoted by Congress so hopefully the President can't pack the army with his guys.  No one swears allegiance to a party or an individual but rather to protect the Constitution. 

Turkey's constitution is weak.  That's why they will devolve into a autocratic society with one man rule.   If America keeps re-interpreting our Constitution to fit current political and social beliefs, we could wind up like Turkey.

Photog-x

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Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2016, 11:52:38 am »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.   Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.

Probably many people agree that Iraq/Libya was a mistake, hindsight being 20/20.  Whether or not the populations in those countries deserved a better life/better leaders is another story, but obviously things are a mess there now.  One could argue that those people had a great opportunity to turn everything around and make a great country for themselves after the war.  They really could have, were it not for all their silly tribal feuds and religious bickering between the different groups.   Having said that, hat's off to the Germans for their big turn around.  They took the opportunity to make their lives/country better after their tyrannical leader.  Same for Japan.  Why didn't the Iraqi's take advantage of the opportunity they had?   They certainly had the money and military backing to do it after the war, yet, they squandered it and insisted on returning to fighting among themselves.   Either way, thanks for nothing.  Big mistake to ever get involved.   Such a huge waste of lives, effort and money.
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