Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5   Go Down

Author Topic: The Turkish Military take over.  (Read 16289 times)

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
The Turkish Military take over.
« on: July 15, 2016, 04:54:13 pm »

Or so they appear to claim. It looks as if there is a full scale coup going on in Turkey tonight with the state TV station closed down, Jets flying over Ankara  and the Bosphorus bridges closed. Erdogan is not a popular man in many European countries and even less so amongst the army it seems.

Several points to note -

1. Merkel was thought to be close to Erdogan and Germany wished to see Turkey join the EU.
2. Turkey is deeply involved in the middle east wars and alliances with strong Muslim sympathies, Erdogan is a keen Islamist anyway.
3. It is not unforeseeble for other countries (Russia?) to get involved resulting in yet another civil war.
4. Turkey has been trying to appear a modern country in the western mould to encourage trade but military coups don't reinforce that perception.
5. Turkey under Erdogan has a less than shining record on human rights.

More disruption and closer to home than some far off desert.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 05:02:35 pm by Justinr »
Logged

BAB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 515
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 08:24:09 pm »

Many people would love a successful takeover, besides that fact I'm glad you posted this my hope is the post goes viral so a certain important person in the White House is aware of situation.


What was that old saying "The definition of insanity"

Logged
I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kic

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2016, 04:43:12 am »

It looks as if it's all over  with Erdogan back in charge, for the time being at least.

Now the questions start; was it the Russians on the US behind it, maybe it was an extremist Islamic plot within the army, why did so many turn out on to the streets in favour of an elected dictator rather than an army promising peace and equality, will Erdogan embark on a spree of retaliation or will he try to brush it under the carpet, did Merkel know that her favoured friend was facing a coup? Etc etc.

Plenty to chew over but it does seem that Turkey's application for EU membership will be put on hold for a decade or two yet.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 04:47:33 am by Justinr »
Logged

Photog-x

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2016, 10:17:06 am »

Welcome to the next IS dictatorship.  We'll see, but so far it looks like that intolerant goon is pushing the country in that direction. 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/turkish-soldier-beheaded-pro-government-8433319

Too bad the military failed (because not enough were involved and they weren't willing to do what was necessary to win)...

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2016, 10:56:11 am »

In the Middle East it's never over.

With luck, this set of soldiers will be gathered back into the bosom of the military and held accountable to military law (at some future time) and not state. To do otherwise would be to sow loss of faith within the military establishment, something that I feel they wouldn't care to allow. Who knows how the thing was really organized and with what agenda; did they really want to bring down the government or give it a warning in the only way they know it would understand?

Perhaps Erdie will learn a lesson from this, and slow down his waltz with the wrong guys, keeping the religious factions out of governmental policy. I don't think newly-found freedoms are going to be easily allowed to get stolen. But then again, you never can tell, and Occam's razor isn't the only tool in the drawer.

Rob C

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2016, 11:00:40 am »

Why the 2nd Amendment is so important.  If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of?  The last protector against tyranny.

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2016, 11:02:53 am »

Hi Rob,

Thanks, I guess I understand what you mean :-)

Best regards
Erik


In the Middle East it's never over.

With luck, this set of soldiers will be gathered back into the bosom of the military and held accountable to military law (at some future time) and not state. To do otherwise would be to sow loss of faith within the military establishment, something that I feel they wouldn't care to allow. Who knows how the thing was really organized and with what agenda; did they really want to bring down the government or give it a warning in the only way they know it would understand?

Perhaps Erdie will learn a lesson from this, and slow down his waltz with the wrong guys, keeping the religious factions out of governmental policy. I don't think newly-found freedoms are going to be easily allowed to get stolen. But then again, you never can tell, and Occam's razor isn't the only tool in the drawer.

Rob C
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8913
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2016, 11:18:54 am »

Why the 2nd Amendment is so important.  If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of?

Hi Alan,

Not sure what you are trying to say, but it was stopped without citizens having to pick up the arms, and with surprisingly little bloodshed.

Quote
The last protector against tyranny.

Sometimes, or a nuclear device.

Perhaps Erdie will learn a lesson from this, and slow down his waltz with the wrong guys, keeping the religious factions out of governmental policy.

The so called democratic President Erdogan just fired/arrested 2700 judges. They were not pro-Erdogan enough it seems (and the risk of someone protesting against the lay-offs now is minimal) ..., just like the newspapers that had their management and reporters replaced, the politicians stripped of their political immunity, and the army top that had already been replaced by straw men.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 06:54:33 pm by BartvanderWolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2016, 11:21:29 am »

Why the 2nd Amendment is so important.  If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of?  The last protector against tyranny.


Yes, terrifying prospect, isn't it?

Protection against tyranny? Read something about Turkish history and come back sing¡ng a similar song. And whilst you're at it, try figuring out who the current tyrant might be, and what he's doing with that precious 'democracy'; for an easy start: think about the media people shut down and off the street and out of circulation; the distancing of secular principles from government...

Rob C

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2016, 11:38:12 am »

Why the 2nd Amendment is so important.  If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of?  The last protector against tyranny.

Unfortunately, this is a coup that should have succeeded. For a very long time now the Turkish military has stood behind Ataturk's revolution against the Ottoman caliphate and Sharia law. I suspect that had the citizenry been armed the coup would have succeeded. Unfortunately, Erdogan figured this out long ago and eliminated most of the people in the military who'd have stood with Ataturk.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2016, 11:47:35 am »

Rob:  I don't understand your point.  It was armed military that staged the coup, not the people.  Whether it's a mistake that they support Erdogan or not, enough citizens reacted against the coup plotters.  As far as Americans, we're already armed to the teeth.  Yet our democracy is as strong as ever.  There haven't been negative effects against our government and freedom because citizens are armed.  In fact, I think it's kept many erstwhile dictators even here from thinking they could gain traction.  However, should something happen in the future, "an armed citizenry is the last defense against tyranny."  An unarmed populace is much weaker against an out-of-control government.  The first thing dictators do is take the guns away from the people to protect their power.  Remember, it was armed patriots with muskets in 1776 that revolted against the most militarily powerful dictatorship in the world (England under King George III).  And won.

Robert Roaldi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4763
    • Robert's Photos
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2016, 03:38:25 pm »

It's odd how often freedom-loving democracy-believing americans are in favour of military coups elsewhere.
Logged
--
Robert

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2016, 03:51:21 pm »

Rob:  I don't understand your point.  It was armed military that staged the coup, not the people.  Whether it's a mistake that they support Erdogan or not, enough citizens reacted against the coup plotters.  As far as Americans, we're already armed to the teeth.  Yet our democracy is as strong as ever.  There haven't been negative effects against our government and freedom because citizens are armed.  In fact, I think it's kept many erstwhile dictators even here from thinking they could gain traction.  However, should something happen in the future, "an armed citizenry is the last defense against tyranny."  An unarmed populace is much weaker against an out-of-control government.  The first thing dictators do is take the guns away from the people to protect their power.  Remember, it was armed patriots with muskets in 1776 that revolted against the most militarily powerful dictatorship in the world (England under King George III).  And won.


Alan,

The citizenry wasn't shooting: it was facing down the armoured vehicles - just like in that Chinese square so long ago. On the other hand, had it been waving guns, it would have been mown down and run over. The military was simply unwilling to kill its own people.

As a result, and how terribly conveniently for Erdie Boy, he has immediately had 2745 judges arrested. Isn't that so handy for him! Along with newspapers, bloggers, it's now the judiciary being put out of sght. Soon it'll be a 'democracy' without an Opposition of any sort. Were I given to bets, my money might easily be on the entire episode being constructed so as to provide the circumstances that would allow Erdie to apply the 'solutions' he had found awkward without the problems to which to attach them.

These guys were traders when the 'west' was still living in daub huts. They have vision.

And on another matter, Russ is right: if anyone imagines they are saving only the destitute from the sea, that's a naivety beyond comprehension. Someone willing to blow his own balls off isn't going to be fazed by salt water.

Rob

P.S. Come to think of it, there's hardly need to import any of these people: they already exist as home-grown time bombs. Who needs to learn how to make explosives, find detonators etc. etc. when they need nothing more than a cheap kitchen knife or the ability to drive? Anyone driven by blind hatred and/or faith can do anything to which he (and often he's a she) puts their mind to doing.

The fact that the killings end up being quite haphazard and indiscriminate, people of all types of belief (or lack of it) being killed, shows that it's the killing itself that's the prize, the ultimate buzz.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 04:26:09 pm by Rob C »
Logged

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2016, 05:34:43 pm »

Just a juicy rumour at the mo but there are reports of gunfire and explosions coming from within the US Incirlik airbase! If yer man Erdo is picking a fight with the US then we had better all get our tin hats on.
Logged

Photog-x

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2016, 06:39:04 pm »

It's odd how often freedom-loving democracy-believing americans are in favour of military coups elsewhere.

It's nice to live in a place where you can speak your mind without fear of disappearing, isn't it?   

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8913
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2016, 07:49:17 pm »

It's nice to live in a place where you can speak your mind without fear of disappearing, isn't it?

Yes, which is basically what Robert suggested.

Of course, there is also something as a fake sense of security/protection. One of the last laws proposed by the next/new Prime Minister of the UK, Theresa May (in her former role), significantly restricts the protection of privacy, which raises a few eyebrows, at least in (by some dredged) Europe.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2016, 05:44:40 am »

Yes, which is basically what Robert suggested.

Of course, there is also something as a fake sense of security/protection. One of the last laws proposed by the next/new Prime Minister of the UK, Theresa May (in her former role), significantly restricts the protection of privacy, which raises a few eyebrows, at least in (by some dredged) Europe.

Cheers,
Bart

Aka known as freedom of social media.

I have no qualms about suggesting that much so-called social media serves no useful purpose at all.

I've reached this venerable age without any help whatsoever from FBook, Twitter and all the bloody rest of them. I would be perfectly happy to see them closed tout de suite. They are the perfect conduit for terrorism, get in the way of people having actual conversations, and fill up the ether with more radiation than I need.

It takes but one visit to any public dining area to see the effects: people sit before the table, heads bowed and deep in concentration, ignoring the other people sitting beside them. If ever one of the best opportunities for social bonding has been destroyed it's this: eating together is now eating alone in company. No wonder people are increasingly antisocial, insular and incapable of interaction or even, in many, many cases, of writing a couple of sentences that hold together and make a modicum of sense.

Freedom? What the hell has living on a cellphone screen got to do with freedom? If anything, it's the unwitting abandonment of freedom to the slavery of a robotic interface where nothing, not even your family, is any longer real.

My late wife was a very smart lady, bright in both maths and the sciences. She would never send an e-mail, nor would she text. I used to tease her about it, and all she'd say was this: "within a second of hearing the kids on the 'phone I can tell if they are really okay or just telling me that they are okay."

And when you consider the cost and turnover of these daft toys, the emotional pressure/need to keep up with the idiot next door or sitting at the next desk, you can see that the camera trade still has a lot of marketing catching up to do. In the meantime, nice to know that your cellphone can double as a bomb trigger! So reassuring, isn't it?

As for privacy: in the UK you can't even get people to accept ID cards! Here, in Spain, they are essential. They are one of the most useful devices ever invented, far more useful than your credit card! They vouch for you, open doors for you, but in the UK are, by many, seen as, and equated with fights against democracy, against human rights, against your religion or lack of it; they are dragons breathing political fire and oppression.

Instead, I think they could be made even more useful by incorporating blood-type, allergies and all sorts of known medical details that can save your life if you fall to the ground unconscious for some reason or another. But no, that will inevitably be seen as intrusion, a fight against your freedom. Oy, effin' vey; what a bunch of conspiracy theorists we are becoming - or have already become!

In short, we are abandoning reality, the concept of being useful neighbours and withdrawing ever more deeply into tiny worlds within our own minds, incapable of accepting any wider picture and without the moderating influence of experiencing much that's real at first hand. Being Europeans? What? Have to cope with something that's not English, with brands we can't find at home? Better out of it!

Our sense of 'privacy' has become distorted to mean anything but our privacy, but simply our ability to plot and/or indulge in criminality with greater ease than ever before. In the end, it's the communication opportunities for criminals that we are defending; where innocent, there is nothing to hide, is there?

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2016, 09:30:02 am »

Quote
The citizenry wasn't shooting: it was facing down the armoured vehicles - just like in that Chinese square so long ago. On the other hand, had it been waving guns, it would have been mown down and run over. The military was simply unwilling to kill its own people.

Not sure of your point.  China is  a military dictatorship. Turkey is not.  If I recall correctly, Chinese soldiers shot  protestors by the hundreds.  It was called the Tiananmen Square Massacre.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989  If the Chinese people had guns, maybe they would be able to throw out their dictators.  Certainly in every dictatorship, the first thing the leaders do is take away the guns.  That's why the Founder of America insisted in our Constitution that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms.  Your other point about where Erdogan is going I agree with.  And once it happens, the unarmed people won't be able to do anything about it any more than the Venezuelans can. 

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2016, 09:39:16 am »

Not sure of your point.  China is  a military dictatorship. Turkey is not.  If I recall correctly, Chinese soldiers shot  protestors by the hundreds.  It was called the Tiananmen Square Massacre.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989  If the Chinese people had guns, maybe they would be able to throw out their dictators. Certainly in every dictatorship, the first thing the leaders do is take away the guns.  That's why the Founder of America insisted in our Constitution that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms.  Your other point about where Erdogan is going I agree with.  And once it happens, the unarmed people won't be able to do anything about it any more than the Venezuelans can. 

And get Donald Trump instead?

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: The Turkish Military take over.
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2016, 11:23:15 am »

Not sure of your point.  China is  a military dictatorship. Turkey is not.


"quote author=Alan Klein link=topic=111664.msg923042#msg923042 date=1468684055]
Rob:  I don't understand your point.  It was armed military that staged the coup, not the people."

...

Yes, I know that; the point is that the military didn't shoot them simply because they were unarmed, posed no real threat, and were also their own citizens. Had they, the citizens/mob/whatever been bearing arms, shooting at tanks etc., then the only possible reply would have been that of even heavier firepower, in return, from the tanks.

That arming the citizens is some sort of guarantee against dictatorships is pure fantasy. In an actual civil war, they would't stand a chance. Dictators or not, one of the best things any leader could do for his people is take the guns away! As I've said ad nauseam but still seems beyond many heads, the sole function of a gun is to deal in death. Period. It can not be compared to accidents/killings with cars, airplanes, motorboats, motorcycles, runaway horses nor even bats or dogs with rabies: guns stand separately as single-purpose products. Effing about with statistics in vain attempts to cloud the issue might work for some, but anyone with the ability - or will - to see the truth can not avoid the reality of what a gun does, to animals or to people.

Rob


And here we go again: Baton Rouge, today. Seven policemen shot, three dead. Still find an argument for civilians with guns?


« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 11:59:25 am by Rob C »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5   Go Up