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Author Topic: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch  (Read 21775 times)

zineevo

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Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« on: July 15, 2016, 05:22:16 am »

Hello everybody

I'm currently a PhaseOne XF IQ user and I'm pretty happy with the system, although I don't use / need all the features.
As a Portrait Photographer I use the camera very casually - no HDR, Focus-Stacking, LiveView, Auto-Exposre and so on...

Since my first encounter with Hasselblad H-System which was many years ago, I fell in love with the handling and the grip of the system.
Now I had the chance to test drive the new H6D and the Grip with it's ergonomics is fabulous. Also the weight difference is big - especially for my usage of the camera.

Because I'm thinking of upgrading to the 100MP Sensor on the PhaseOne-Side, I'm also considering the H6D-100c System.


Now my questions to this community:
Are there any PhaseOne-Users which switched to the Hasselblad-System or vice versa?
Are there things you miss about the P1 or the Hassy-System after the Switch?
How reliable is the Hassy-System compared to the P1?
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 07:34:21 am »

I don't believe any of the Hasselblad gear has shipped to the general population yet has it?  Either camera or back.

I agree the ergonomics of the new camera look great.

Paul C
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zineevo

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 07:49:44 am »

That's right, Paul.
The 50c is being shipped here but the 100c is not available at the moment.

But I'm generally speaking about the Hasselblad H-System, of course the H6D is a complete new generation...
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Joe Towner

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 12:09:25 pm »

Many folks have switched both directions, Hasselblad and Phase.  I haven't seen as much since the XF came out, but it still happens.

The one thing that most Phase users miss is CaptureOne.  Phocus is getting better, but it's behind what CaptureOne does (how much depends on the user).  If you don't currently use the wireless tethering / CapturePilot, then you won't miss them.

Reliability numbers are hit and miss - some folks never have an issue, some folks are issues themselves.  How do you currently handle a camera down situation, and would it change?

I would consider what lenses you have and use, and what would need to be swapped out.  As much as you test driving the -50c model will give you workflow, color and retouch ability, I would recommend holding off a bit as the 100mp with the different visual crop and lens selection may play into your decision.  I consider the 35-90mm my favorite H lens, and would want to see how shooting it works (mapped out area and all).
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zineevo

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 12:56:14 pm »

Joe, that's a very good answer and some good points.

Phocus 3.x is bad, but fast compared to Capture One, but that probably depends on the user. For me it's not that big of a deal. I still can use C1 for my other camera systems.
In terms of C1 for my PhaseOne System - I only use it to tether and for the RAW-Processing. After the import of the files, I export those directly as TIFF to continue my work in Photoshop.

As I've heard from my H-Dealer, Hasselblad has 13 new developers who work exclusively on Phocus, which should it make better over time.

I handle all my Equipment very carefully and I'll continue to do so. But it should be weather-sealed and handle the outdoors.

For the lens selection, that's not a problem. I own an IQ380 with the same sensor size than the 100MP - I also compared the Hassy-Lenses with the H4D-60 which has the same sensor.
The 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, 120mm are the lenses I consider.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 12:59:27 pm by zineevo »
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 01:37:09 pm »

I am not a pro, but I have used both systems (just up to H4D) for many years.
The Hasselblad feels lighter and nicer to hold and work with, I agree.

BUT, most of the lenses are inferior to the new Phase LS lenses. Some of them
have been upgraded like the 50 and 120, but most of them are weak compared to Phase one
Schneider lenses. At least the way my eyes see it.

I think the H6 seems like a big step in the right direction, but they realy need to come up
with some high quality lenses. I am sure many will disagree on this ;D
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design_freak

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2016, 01:39:04 pm »


As I've heard from my H-Dealer, Hasselblad has 13 new developers who work exclusively on Phocus, which should it make better over time.


This is a joke ... 13 ??!

If Hasselblad wants to be really strong in this market, they can not forget that the software is very important if not more important than the hardware itself.
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razrblck

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2016, 01:42:40 pm »

13 new developers over the ones already there sounds like a lot for a single piece of software.

Sure, it's not going to have the same amount of people Office or the Adobe suite may have, but Hasselblad is a much smaller company and that is a rather huge investment in human resources.
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SZRitter

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2016, 01:47:46 pm »

13 new developers over the ones already there sounds like a lot for a single piece of software.

Sure, it's not going to have the same amount of people Office or the Adobe suite may have, but Hasselblad is a much smaller company and that is a rather huge investment in human resources.

Drats, you beat me to the reply. That said, I wonder how many total are in the development team. I was on a flight a few years ago with a microsoft engineer who worked on the internationalization team for Office. Coming from a small team of web developers, I was mind blown by the amount of people and teams it took to do a single piece of software. And, not ever having to worry about internationalization, how much was involved in that process alone.
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zineevo

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 01:49:58 pm »

As I said - I've heard the number 13 from my Hassy-Dealer. I can't guarantee this number :)

But if it's true, that's awesome!
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razrblck

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2016, 01:52:55 pm »

Office is also one of the main source of income for Microsoft, so it's not surprising they are willing to spend as much as needed on it. But yeah, it is mind boggling. The biggest team I worked with was four people, we developed a small software for warehouse management with PocketPC, barcode scanner and RFID support for a few local companies, but I've since moved on. With enough people and the right plan you can achieve a lot in very little time, as we did it all in the span of seven months from scratch to finished product.
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SZRitter

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2016, 02:15:55 pm »

As I said - I've heard the number 13 from my Hassy-Dealer. I can't guarantee this number :)

But if it's true, that's awesome!

You said 13 NEW. That new is a lovely marketing term to make it seem like they are expanding the team and throwing more resources at it than previously. But is it 13 completely new positions and the loss of 5 old ones? Of course, we are completely arguing theoretics and unless someone on the team or closely related to it pops in, we may never know.
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cgarnerhome

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2016, 05:10:07 pm »

It was mentioned that the weight difference is big.  I must be reading the specs wrong but on the websites Phase One has the XF100 with the 80mm lens at 2180 grams and Hasselblad has the weight of the H6D with the 80mm lens at 2130 grams.  I have the XF100 and I have not handled so perhaps the Hasselblad is easier to handle.  I must admit that the handling the XF100 has been OK.  My biggest complaint is the total weight when hiking into an area - a 50 gram weight difference won't matter to me.

BobShaw

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2016, 07:44:52 pm »

I started in medium format with the Mamiya AF then AFD and was looking to get a digital back. I bought an ex rental H1 Hasselblad with a Phase One digital back and was hooked on Hasselblad. Everything was much better on the Hasselblad than the Mamiya AFD which became the Phase One camera, but still looks like a brick.

I then upgraded to an H2 with the Phase One back and was using Capture One to process. I found the image quality was good but did not like the separate batteries which the Phase One back just ate. Also if you want to use it on a view camera you have that wake up cable problem. I made my own cable and used a one shot system to overcome it. Capture One was OK but I didn't think it was good as Aperture which I already used. This was version 7 so it has no doubt improved.

I then had the opportunity to get an H3D-II 31 and found it to be a far better system with the integrated back. I have since upgraded to an H3DII-39. I sold all of the Phase / Mamiya gear and have never looked back. All in all it is a much better camera and system. I look longingly at an H5D or maybe X1D in the future. I also shoot Canon for anything that needs action or portability. The X1D will overcome the portability and give medium format in the backpack.

A lot seems to be made of Capture One vs Phocus. Most of it seems to be from people that don't understand  that they perform different functions. Phocus is a raw converter and capture tool and that is it. It excels at these things, particularly if you do reproduction as the colour correction if required is built in. It does not do Digital Asset Management at all. That is something we all hope for but use other programmes for currently. The answer is that you simply export a TIFF or use Photoshop after FFF conversion. Photoshop doesn't do DAM either, but no one complains about that.

Capture One and Lightroom are jacks of all trades, but to me they are master of none.

I still use Aperture for DAM. It works reliably. I think it is better than Capture One and supports all of my Smart Albums. It also works on a server which Lightroom doesn't. Capture One works on a server but doesn't support Hasselblad, so it is not an option for me.

So if you are looking to get into Hasselblad you won't be disappointed and the Phocus thing is just something that people who don't use Hasselblad just say to make themselves feel better. (:-)
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Joe Towner

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2016, 07:56:54 pm »

13 dev's, but how many testers?  Dev's shouldn't test their own code, and as much fun as public beta folks are, they aren't trained testers.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2016, 04:03:32 am »

BUT, most of the lenses are inferior to the new Phase LS lenses. Some of them
have been upgraded like the 50 and 120, but most of them are weak compared to Phase one
Schneider lenses. At least the way my eyes see it.

I am a bit surprised to read this. From what I have seen the Hassy 28mm and 100mm are also outstanding in absolute terms and, although I haven't seen direct comparisons, they didn't seem inferior to their Schneider counterparts?

The one Hassy lens that seems really below par is the 35mm that I used to own.

Cheers,
Bernard

zineevo

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2016, 04:03:55 am »

It was mentioned that the weight difference is big.  I must be reading the specs wrong but on the websites Phase One has the XF100 with the 80mm lens at 2180 grams and Hasselblad has the weight of the H6D with the 80mm lens at 2130 grams.  I have the XF100 and I have not handled so perhaps the Hasselblad is easier to handle.  I must admit that the handling the XF100 has been OK.  My biggest complaint is the total weight when hiking into an area - a 50 gram weight difference won't matter to me.

About the weight difference - we tested it on our own.
I compared my PhaseOne XF IQ380 + Prism with an SK 80mm LS (Blue ring) against the H6D-50c + Prism with 80mm f/2.8 and the weight difference was almost 700g. That's huge - also the balance is much better on the Hassy.

Hasselblad said 2130g complete with Prism, Body, Back, Battery, Card and lens. On the PhaseOne site it says: XF with Prism 1390g + IQ100 695g + SK 80mm 500g => 2585g without batteries or card.

For me who shoots 95% handheld and this on long commercial-shoots, it's very important. I had no Problem shooting one hour straight with the H6D, but when picking up the Phase, after a few minutes I want to let go if it, because of the weight.
And no, I'm not weak guy ;)

--

I started in medium format with the Mamiya AF then AFD and was looking to get a digital back. I bought an ex rental H1 Hasselblad with a Phase One digital back and was hooked on Hasselblad. Everything was much better on the Hasselblad than the Mamiya AFD which became the Phase One camera, but still looks like a brick.

I then upgraded to an H2 with the Phase One back and was using Capture One to process. I found the image quality was good but did not like the separate batteries which the Phase One back just ate. Also if you want to use it on a view camera you have that wake up cable problem. I made my own cable and used a one shot system to overcome it. Capture One was OK but I didn't think it was good as Aperture which I already used. This was version 7 so it has no doubt improved.

I then had the opportunity to get an H3D-II 31 and found it to be a far better system with the integrated back. I have since upgraded to an H3DII-39. I sold all of the Phase / Mamiya gear and have never looked back. All in all it is a much better camera and system. I look longingly at an H5D or maybe X1D in the future. I also shoot Canon for anything that needs action or portability. The X1D will overcome the portability and give medium format in the backpack.

A lot seems to be made of Capture One vs Phocus. Most of it seems to be from people that don't understand  that they perform different functions. Phocus is a raw converter and capture tool and that is it. It excels at these things, particularly if you do reproduction as the colour correction if required is built in. It does not do Digital Asset Management at all. That is something we all hope for but use other programmes for currently. The answer is that you simply export a TIFF or use Photoshop after FFF conversion. Photoshop doesn't do DAM either, but no one complains about that.

Capture One and Lightroom are jacks of all trades, but to me they are master of none.

I still use Aperture for DAM. It works reliably. I think it is better than Capture One and supports all of my Smart Albums. It also works on a server which Lightroom doesn't. Capture One works on a server but doesn't support Hasselblad, so it is not an option for me.

So if you are looking to get into Hasselblad you won't be disappointed and the Phocus thing is just something that people who don't use Hasselblad just say to make themselves feel better. (:-)

These are some good insights. Thank you for that.
About the battery issue. The new XF still uses two batteries, but are the same. Sadly I couldn't test the new H6D batteries which have more power - I was testing the H5D's Battery. And I have to say, that the PhaseOne XF does a better job here.
An important point is that the new H6D-Batteries cost almost 400.00 in my country. And I need at least 5 spare batteries. That are some costs, compared to 80.00 per P1-Battery.

As I've said, the Phocus Software does it's job very good for rendering the files and export as TIFF.
I wouldn't "develop" the files in Phocus or do anything bigger to it. That's mainly because I work in Photoshop almost all of the time, and second, I'm used to the results in Capture One. But over time, this can change :)
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Joe Towner

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2016, 10:38:25 pm »

An important point is that the new H6D-Batteries cost almost 400.00 in my country. And I need at least 5 spare batteries.

Ouch - you may want to look into a DC-DC adapter using the power plug on the back, if that works for you.  Even as a belt pack, just not having to think about the power would be nice, and to get in at a discount would be great.
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zineevo

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2016, 12:42:40 am »

Ouch - you may want to look into a DC-DC adapter using the power plug on the back, if that works for you.  Even as a belt pack, just not having to think about the power would be nice, and to get in at a discount would be great.

Inside the Studio this is a possible option. But if I'm tethering and use the DC-Power at the same time, working with two cables from two destinations is not ideal.
That's also a plus point to the Phase-System. I can tether and the battery can be charged while shooting to the laptop.

If the battery prices for the Hasselblad were less, that's not a big deal then.
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NickT

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Re: Phase One XF - Hasselblad H6D | Differences / Switch
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2016, 02:19:06 am »

I'm a Hasselblad user.

Software
Phocus vS C1 as Bob said chalk and cheese. Phocus just exists get your images from RAW to whatever and it does that very well. They are adding features (I know, I'm a beta) but it will never be as featured as the excellent C1.

Lenses.
Hasselblad lenses are excellent (bar the 35mm which is not so great) and they benefit from digital corrections based on the shooting conditions, aperture, focus distance etc. C1 does not have this level of precision at least not with HC and HCD lenses. Probably not your thing but the HTS corrections are amazing.

Camera/back
I haven't used an XF so can't comment there. I really like my H series and True Focus. Hasselblad were behind the IQ series until the H6D with which I think they have caught up, but again I'm not familiar with the IQ series.

The X1D is awesome, just saying:)

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