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Author Topic: Need help printing red  (Read 3414 times)

gchappel

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Need help printing red
« on: July 14, 2016, 06:28:32 pm »

I have an image I am trying to print. 
Black silhouettes on a backlight red screen- was a dance recital.
Is there a way to maximize the red- basically print with just red and black.
I have adjusted color in photoshop so r=255, g=0,b=0 hoping to force red.
What the ipf8400 prints is an orange, and also darker than it's brightest red.
I am obviously a newbie at this- printing away comfortably most of the time- but this one has me stumped.
Thanks for any help
Gary
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DeanChriss

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 05:48:44 am »

If you soft proof this image and turn on the gamut warning you will probably find the background color is out of gamut (i.e.; beyond the range of the paper/ink combination you are using). If that turns out to be the issue, while viewing the soft proof with the gamut warning turned on you can make adjustments like color, saturation, brightness (assuming you've selected just the background) to bring the color into the gamut you can print. If you are printing on a mat finished paper changing to a semi-glossy or glossy paper can help a lot.  Otherwise you just have to get as close as you can using the gamut warning and probably a saturation adjustment. I hope this helps!
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gchappel

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 06:41:56 am »

Thanks for the direction.  I tried a correct gamma approach- it gave me a red, but too dark.  Darker than the brightest red the printer can print.  I then tried a brighter red- but that was out of gamma and pushed the print output towards orange.  i have moved over to a gloss paper.  Relative works better than perceptual- I think.  Maybe what I have is as good as I will get- will test some more.
Thanks
Gary
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LGeb

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 08:44:10 am »

The red is out of gamut for your printer. Experiment with the different rendering intents, which control how the out of gamut colors are handled. See the section "About rendering intents"
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shadowblade

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 08:55:45 am »

The problem is not just gamut - it's also dynamic range.

On screen, there is a huge difference in light intensity between the red and the black. Aim a lightmeter at it and the red is much brighter. This contrast is not reproducible on paper - even if the red were in gamut and you could print such a bright, intense red, you still couldn't reproduce the contrast. This is true with any high-contrast image, but this image relies particularly heavily on this contrast for its impact.

Printing it on a high-gloss, metallic surface would certainly help. If the display allows it, backlit transparency would be a far preferable display medium for this image.
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JRSmit

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 09:52:06 am »

I have an image I am trying to print. 
Black silhouettes on a backlight red screen- was a dance recital.
Is there a way to maximize the red- basically print with just red and black.
I have adjusted color in photoshop so r=255, g=0,b=0 hoping to force red.
What the ipf8400 prints is an orange, and also darker than it's brightest red.
I am obviously a newbie at this- printing away comfortably most of the time- but this one has me stumped.
Thanks for any help
Gary
R255 G0 B0 in what color space?
Any how it is outside of any printer-paper gamut. Glossy or satin or luster have the largest gamut but still your red codig is out of gamut.
a client of mine once put his image in softproof with a profile of a glossy paper and Adjust ed the red colors to be just within the profile gamut. Not just clippING but rather perceptual correct alternatief the red to become within the profile gamut.
End result was still fantastic.
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GrahamBy

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2016, 03:36:45 am »


On screen, there is a huge difference in light intensity between the red and the black. Aim a lightmeter at it and the red is much brighter. This contrast is not reproducible on paper

This seems to me one of those bits of received wisdom that deserves to be questioned. The dynamic range of a reflective image is determined by the viewing conditions: it can reflect what is shined onto it.
The dynamic range of a screen us determined by its maximum intensity. You should be able to turn down the screen brightness sufficiently that the DR is comparable with that of a reflective print under good lighting.

Of course if you want to print on matte paper and view the result in semi-darkness, you may have problems.
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shadowblade

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2016, 06:29:55 am »

This seems to me one of those bits of received wisdom that deserves to be questioned. The dynamic range of a reflective image is determined by the viewing conditions: it can reflect what is shined onto it.
The dynamic range of a screen us determined by its maximum intensity. You should be able to turn down the screen brightness sufficiently that the DR is comparable with that of a reflective print under good lighting.

Of course if you want to print on matte paper and view the result in semi-darkness, you may have problems.

The brightness of a paper print depends on the lighting condition, but the dynamic range does not. A white area might reflect 98% of incident light, whereas a dark area might reflect 3%. The absolute amount of reflected light might differ depending on the viewing environment, but the difference between the brightest and darkest areas will not.
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GrahamBy

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2016, 06:50:15 am »

The brightness of a paper print depends on the lighting condition, but the dynamic range does not. A white area might reflect 98% of incident light, whereas a dark area might reflect 3%. The absolute amount of reflected light might differ depending on the viewing environment, but the difference between the brightest and darkest areas will not.

That supposes no lower threshold on human vision, which is not the case. If the 3% reflection is too low, you won't see it. So the DR will be lower with 40 lumens than with 200... it's pretty easy to see this if you print a B&W with lots of deep shadow detail then view it under different intensity lighting. Under dim light, the shadow detail will be invisible.
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shadowblade

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2016, 12:04:04 pm »

That supposes no lower threshold on human vision, which is not the case. If the 3% reflection is too low, you won't see it. So the DR will be lower with 40 lumens than with 200... it's pretty easy to see this if you print a B&W with lots of deep shadow detail then view it under different intensity lighting. Under dim light, the shadow detail will be invisible.

That doesn't change the print's dynamic range, though.

It just means that, under dim lighting, the deeper shadows in the print (i.e. the darkest part of the print's dynamic range) will be outside the human visual system's dynamic range. The same thing will happen with any print - the brighter the print, the darker the conditions will need to be, but it will happen with any print that doesn't emit its own light.
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gigdagefg

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2016, 02:49:18 pm »

Using the Imageprint profile for Canson Platine, I was able to very closely duplicate the image on my calibrated Eizo screen
Stanley
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gchappel

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2016, 08:46:24 pm »

Using the Imageprint profile for Canson Platine, I was able to very closely duplicate the image on my calibrated Eizo screen
Stanley

You must be much better at post processing than I am, or the imageprint profile is magnificent.  I can get somewhat close in general appearance, but the color is a little orange.  As I go to a more correct red, it gets darker.
I am on a canon ipf8400 or I would give imageprint a try.
Thanks, glad to know it is possible- I will work on it a little more
Gary
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GrahamBy

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 05:17:24 am »

That doesn't change the print's dynamic range, though.

Technically, no. It changes the DR as perceived by a human observer, which is what appears to be most relevant.
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Damir

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2016, 03:58:40 pm »

Hmm – brightness of monitor can be 100% in light area and 3% in dark area so dynamic range is not so much different than that of a paper!

I know the logic – monitor is much brighter than paper, but if you shine more light on the paper it will be brighter too.

Problem in everyday life is that most of the people have monitors much brighter than intensity of light in their living or exhibiting space, therefore light reflecting from paper cannot reach intensity of light from monitor.
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shadowblade

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2016, 09:31:54 am »

Hmm – brightness of monitor can be 100% in light area and 3% in dark area so dynamic range is not so much different than that of a paper!

I know the logic – monitor is much brighter than paper, but if you shine more light on the paper it will be brighter too.

Problem in everyday life is that most of the people have monitors much brighter than intensity of light in their living or exhibiting space, therefore light reflecting from paper cannot reach intensity of light from monitor.

A typical monitor will have 1000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, or around 10 stops of DR, while a good TV or monitor might hit 4000:1 (12 stops). That's a lot more than paper.

Shining more light on paper will make it brighter, but will also make the black parts brighter - it won't increase the DR. Even the best glossy papers with the blackest inkjet inks will only give you around 6 stops of DR. There are some new pigments, developed within the past year, that could potentially give you a Dmax of 5 or 6, but, so far, they have not been made into inkjet inks (although, apparently, they've made it into an aerosol spray). These materials are so dark and nonreflective they look unnatural - a sphere coated in it and placed in a room looks like a hole in space-time, not a black object.
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digitaldog

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Re: Need help printing red
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 09:35:25 am »

Hmm – brightness of monitor can be 100% in light area and 3% in dark area so dynamic range is not so much different than that of a paper!
The contrast ratio of modern LCD's is often reported at 1000:1 and much, much higher. What print can you provide that's greater than maybe 350:1?
See: http://blog.xritephoto.com/2011/07/x-rite-i1display-pro-advanced-features-contrast-ratio-with-coloratti-andrew-rodney/
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