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Author Topic: What does it take?  (Read 56551 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2016, 02:07:01 pm »

... (vast majority of homicides is with legally owned guns):..

Bart, I could not find such a statement in the link you provided. I did find one about mass shootings (51 in the last thirty years), but that is a not the same as "homicides."

Also, the statistics on mass shootings and its analysis come from Mother Jones, an ultra-left magazine. Knowing a thing or two about statistics, and witnessing on more than one occasion how it can be misused for political purposes, I remain skeptical. Besides, mass shooters are determined individuals. Had they not have legal access, they would have obtain it illegally anyway. Or use a different method.

It is worth noting that ISIS first praised Orlando attacker for answering their call for jihad, then CRITICIZED him for not using a more lethal tool, bombs: "It is cool, bro, that you used an assault weapon, but you could have inflicted much more damage and fatalities had you used a bomb." They also have some advice for future jihadists, to avoid targeting minorities, as not to give any excuse to local politicians to label it as a hate crime.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2016, 02:25:35 pm »

In my mind the above would represent a reasonable "fine tuning"...

Pegelli,

That quote ("...a bill that would have denied convicted felons, the mentally ill and anyone on a terrorist watch list...") makes it sound to the uninformed that, at the moment, convicted felons and mentally ill are allowed to buy or own guns, which is not true.

The devil is often in the detail in such bills, and I admit I do not know the details. I am simply stating that the existing legislation already makes it illegal to sell/own guns for those categories.

People on the no-fly list is a different matter, and the objections to it are rather on the matter of principle. This is one of those things that is a no-brainer at first glance. And yet... the no-fly lists are notoriously massive, massively inaccurate, arbitrary, secretive, without oversight, legal recourse, etc. U.S. congressmen and senators, toddlers, celebrities, etc., have found themselves at that list at some point.  And given that gun ownership is a constitutional right (vs. flying), it would give government bureaucrats unprecedented power to deny it.

pegelli

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2016, 02:36:48 pm »

The devil is often in the detail in such bills, and I admit I do not know the details. I am simply stating that the existing legislation already makes it illegal to sell/own guns for those categories.
Also at so-called "gun fares", where (according to the press in Europe, so can't vouch for the accuracy) the checks before buying are virtually non-existent.
And if it's illegal is it checked and enforced?
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2016, 03:01:32 pm »

Also at so-called "gun fares", where (according to the press in Europe, so can't vouch for the accuracy) the checks before buying are virtually non-existent.
And if it's illegal is it checked and enforced?

I do not own a gun (although I was practicing and was good with them, including AK-47, in the army) so I do not know all the intricacies of ownership and control. Based on what I do know (little) about gun fairs and related loopholes, it seems reasonable to close those.

It is also worth noting that one of the two most recent cases (Louisiana) involved a convicted felon with a gun. 911 call preceding the incident notified the police that he had a gun and was threatening someone with it. The fact might have influenced the way policemen responded. I am not suggesting that it makes it right or wrong what they did.

Speaking about police encounters, they are guided by the Supreme Court case Graham v. Conner, from 1989 (emphasis mine):

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Under Graham, all police use of force must be "objectively reasonable." In other words, under like or similar circumstances would a hypothetical "reasonable" officer have done the same thing? The court cautions against the use of hindsight and instead encourages viewing the incident from the perspective of the officers on the scene who are dealing with a dynamic and fluid situation with limited and sometimes incorrect information as to whom they are dealing with. Also, what is important is the totality of the circumstances, not any one particular fact or circumstance.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 06:35:42 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2016, 03:49:23 pm »

Since the incident in Louisiana and others caught on video arrests of African Americans there are two questions that still never get asked or answered and that is...

1. How does a minor infraction such as busted tail lights or someone supposedly having a gun tucked in his pants concealed by a long t-shirt turn into wrestling the perpetrator down to the ground where they meet their death?

2. Why is it in all of these types of exchanges with police does the suspect fight and resist arrest with police even over being questioned for a minor infraction?


There's a dynamic going on that's not being captured on video the public is not being informed about with regard to routine police investigative procedures. This really needs to be understood even more clearly than what's mentioned in Slobadon's Graham vs Conner quote.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2016, 04:03:03 pm »

Since the incident in Louisiana and others caught on video arrests of African Americans there are two questions that still never get asked or answered and that is...

1. How does a minor infraction such as busted tail lights or someone supposedly having a gun tucked in his pants concealed by a long t-shirt turn into wrestling the perpetrator down to the ground where they meet their death?

2. Why is it in all of these types of exchanges with police does the suspect fight and resist arrest with police even over being questioned for a minor infraction?

#1 Shit happens.

#2 Politicians, pandering to a certain voting block, peddle the idea that the system is out to get them. Which then lead them (the particular voting block) to conclude they should resist, fight and argue with the system in the first instance they encounter it (police). Or that they somehow earned the right historically (instead of reparations) to be treated above the law, i.e. that the police should leave them alone to pursue their legitimate criminal enterprise.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 10:08:55 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2016, 04:47:42 pm »

#1 Shit happens.

#2 Politicians, pandering to a certain voting block, peddle the idea that the system is out to get them. Which then lead them (the particular voting block) to conclude they should resist, fight and argue with the system in the first instance then encounter it (police). Or that they somehow earned the right historically (instead of reparations) to be treated above the law, i.e. that the police should leave them alone to pursue their legitimate criminal enterprise.

With your #2 then in that case it should be more wide spread and far more videos would be uploaded and I don't see that happening. There might be a statistic on how many African Americans resist arrest over minor infractions but I wouldn't know how accurate the measure due to the sociological complexity you described.

I don't think it's that simple.

For example in the case of African American woman Sandra Bland's death by suicide in a Texas jail after being roughed up during an arrest for a minor infraction, there's the issue of mental illness to add to the complexity in finding causality. I see so many folks in the news who commit suicide out of the blue unexpectedly (Robin Williams) and yet show no signs of it, and signs or indicators are the only method of diagnosis by professionals.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/21/us/texas-sandra-bland-jail-death-explain/
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2016, 05:00:11 pm »

Tim,

Thankfully, not all African-Americans resist or argue, but the vast majority of those who ended up killed did. Sandra Bland argued too, otherwise would not have ended up in jail, but with just a ticket.

I can only repeat Chris Rock's video I posted earlier on how (not) to deal with the police: https://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8

tom b

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2016, 06:09:02 pm »

"Thankfully, not all African-Americans resist or argue, but the vast majority of those who ended up killed did."

WTF. If you resist or argue you will end up dead.

My original question stands, what does it take to have to have a well educated nation shift to being a civil society. Port Arthur was the tipping point for Australia. Columbine and Sandy Hook should have been America's.

The slaughter keeps on happening.

"Gun violence in the United States results in thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 73,505 nonfatal injuries (23.23 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,636 deaths due to "Injury by firearms",[6] or 10.6 deaths per 100,000 people.[4] 1.3% of all deaths in the country were related to firearms.[1][7]"

Really, what does it take?

Oh, List of school shootings in the US.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 06:13:14 pm by tom b »
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Tom Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2016, 06:14:27 pm »

...WTF. If you resist or argue you will might end up dead...

Corrected.

There are numerous instances in which cops were verbally abused, yet kept their cool (as documented by dashboard cameras). Yet those do not get reported, as they are not the news, but rather a common and frequent occurrence. What ends up in the media are exceptions. The viral nature of those are what creates the impression it is the norm.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2016, 06:34:53 pm »

Source ?

Ok, finally got around to it (the source, that is - one of many):

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About "3 percent of murders and crimes are committed with guns from people who actually (legally) purchase those guns."
— Joe Scarborough on Friday, October 2nd, 2015 in a broadcast of MSNBC's "Morning Joe"

Someone made an attempt to verify this claim and came up with the following conclusion (emphasis mine):

Quote
Recent studies that look at prisoners who had a gun when they committed a crime found that between 3 and 11 percent purchased the weapon at a store or gun show.

The whole verification article is here: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/joe-scarborough/msnbcs-joe-scarborough-tiny-fraction-crimes-commit/

Good morning, Manoli  :)

tom b

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2016, 07:04:50 pm »

"Martin John Bryant is an Australian mass murderer who pleaded guilty to murdering 35 people and injuring 23 others in the Port Arthur massacre".

Hey, he didn't get the death penalty, but in America if you are black you can get the death penalty on the spot for verbally abusing a police officer or resisting arrest.

Really, what does it take for things to change?
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Tom Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2016, 07:06:05 pm »


... in America if you are black you can get the death penalty on the spot for verbally abusing a police officer or resisting arrest...

Are you for real, mate!?

tom b

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2016, 07:33:27 pm »

Death of Eric Garner
Date   July 17, 2014
Location   202 Bay Street, Staten Island, New York, U.S.
Cause   "Compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police"
Participants   Daniel Pantaleo and Justin Damico (NYPD officers)
Outcome   No indictment
Deaths   1
Coroner   New York City Medical Examiner
Litigation   $5.9 million out-of-court settlement

On July 17, 2014, Eric Garner died in Staten Island, New York City, after a New York City Police Department (NYPD) officer put him in what has been described as a chokehold for about 15 to 19 seconds while arresting him. The New York City Medical Examiner's Office attributed Garner's death to a combination of a chokehold, compression of his chest, and poor health. NYPD policy prohibits the use of chokeholds.

Really Slobodan you have missed the point!

The rest of the western world has banned guns and knives.

"Are you for real, mate!?"

Hey, 33,636 deaths due to "Injury by firearms" in one year. What don't you get!
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Tom Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2016, 07:47:00 pm »

...Really Slobodan you have missed the point!...

Maybe.

But you seem to be unable to comprehend any point but your own, and the logic you apply (if any) appears totally outlandish, which makes any further debate with you futile.

John Koerner

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2016, 08:12:36 pm »

The problem is deeper than guns; it's permissiveness.

The idea that foreigners (or "others") come to the USA, not as Americans any longer, but to colonize this country and be parasitic separatists is bleeding us to death, in spirit.

Blacks are encouraged to celebrate their blackness; Hispanics their Latin culture; Muslims their Muslim culture, etc.

All of this creates divisiveness, not unity. We are now a veritable Tower of Babel. No one is responsible; everyone is "entitled" ...

How many languages must I hit on my touchtone phone to hear an English voice in America?

My forefathers spoke German, but came to this country to become Americans, to become productive contributors of this society, not to create "a little Germany" inside the US, run welfare and health care scams, and speak only German. >:(

I always respected a native-Colombian colleague of mine, Robert Contreras, who refused to be called "Roberto," when he became a US Citizen, but who insists that his name is now Robert.
(His also does not speak Spanish, unless dealing with a situation that calls for it, but speaks only English in public.)

In other words, Robert's family came here to the USA to become Americans, not to be yet another addition to the many little-Latin colonies of 100% Spanish-speaking invaders of this country, who do nothing useful here, but cause me to hit "One" on my touchtone phone now, every time I make a phone call, and who use my tax dollars to feed their families. Robert has always worked, always paid his own way, contributed to society with his self-created legitimate business, and teaches his children to speak the language that The Founding Fathers spoke (who created this country).

On and on it goes ... it is the difference between too many people parasitizing this country versus too few trying to become productive citizens.

Our very permissiveness, of letting everyone think and say what they want, of letting them get away with what they want, of letting them protest all they want, be anti-American if they want, with no accountability, IS the problem.

Without standards, there is nothing to aspire to. People no longer come here to "be American," they just come here.

The sense of American unity is gone, the sense of being a melting pot where people shed their past and become Americans is gone.
Now what is happening is other countries are just sending people to colonize our country, not to become Americans.
The sense of dignity, of starting anew, is rapidly disappearing ... being replaced by a scheme to take advantage.

Hell, I could go on forever.

As far as blacks go, it does boil down to the Chris Rock video Slobodan posted.

As a teenager, a white friend of mine got the bejesus beaten out of him by cops ... because he tried to get away on his motorcycle, didn't make a turn, and (well) anyone can guess what happened. He got the sh!^ knocked out of him ... and deservedly so. Had he reached for a gun, he too would be dead. Common sense.

If anyone looks at the rap sheets of the "dearly departed" black folks, they were thugs, nothing more. Had they been productive citizens, doing the right thing, they would be fine today. Being a weapon-toting, mouthy, delinquent @$$hole to cops is a bad recipe for anyone, regardless of color. (If anyone wants to check out what it's like from the cops' point of view, watch this video.)

As far as mass shootings go, they are again caused by lack of socialization, detachment, "me against the world" mental illness that again comes from dis-unity (of family/country) and a whole host of reasons that are too complicated for an internet post. I don't think other countries get this as much, because they're all one nation, one people, one language, for the most part. Our country is different, and its very wide-spread diversity creates its own problems.

America has always had guns, but it also used to have standards for decency.

Now, with the news media, social media, wanton permissiveness ... and a whole plethora of symptoms of much deeper problems ... including a lack of pride, work ethic, and a total lack of responsibility ... are creating these killings. Not guns.

The killings/riots and basic lack of contentedness will continue to happen ... until the illnesses of our society are addressed ... most especially overpopulation + lack of accountability ... with or without legal firearms.

Jack
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 08:18:40 pm by John Koerner »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2016, 08:18:29 pm »

I believe that all this would be settled if we could at least get clear nationwide stats about the % of US population per state in favour of stronger gun control laws.

Somehow this data doesn't seem to be available anywhere.

My guess is that the outcome would be more the 75%.

Cheers,
Bernard

tom b

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2016, 08:22:14 pm »

Really, 33,636 gun deaths in one year, mass shootings in schools, black deaths in arrests, police officers shot in a mass shooting, drive by shootings, the drug war which has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths.

Slobodan, what crazy Republican world are you living in?

Hey, I'm safe and secure in socialist Australia. But hey, farmers can have guns, you can shoot at a firing range. Police and registered firearms owners can carry guns. Automatic and semi automatic weapons are banned. There is only the occasional weapons crime carried out by a mentally ill person. Life is easy, good luck in America, don't look at a crazy gun toting person the wrong way.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 08:29:09 pm by tom b »
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Tom Brown

John Koerner

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2016, 08:43:34 pm »

Really, 33,636 gun deaths in one year, mass shootings in schools, black deaths in arrests, police officers shot in a mass shooting, drive by shootings, the drug war which has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths.

Slobodan, what crazy Republican world are you living in?

Hey, I'm safe and secure in socialist Australia. But hey, farmers can have guns, you can shoot at a firing range. Police and registered firearms owners can carry guns. Automatic and semi automatic weapons are banned. There is only the occasional weapons crime carried out by a mentally ill person. Life is easy, good luck in America, don't look at a crazy gun toting person the wrong way.

Cheers,

How about France? Weapons ban.

Was it French killing French? Nope.

It was as I said, "separatist" groups asserting themselves because of social permissiveness.

Allowing people into a country, who don't have the country's interests at heart, is like hiring an employee who hates his company; or bringing a member onto a team who hates the team.

It is counter-productive and harmful to the company/team, if not downright stupid.

If I move to Japan, my first goal is to speak the language and acclimate. Make myself useful.

If I move to Spain, my first goal is to do likewise ... not cry, bitch, moan, and complain ... asserting "American supremacy" over there :o

But we let this crap happen here in the States and France let it happen as well.

We allow guns here, France does not, but the result was the same: mass deaths.

The choice of weapon isn't the problem; it is the permissiveness of bad intent due to lack of standards that are the problem.

The solution is no more permissiveness; people must abide by a set of standards, be a part of the team, or they are a part of the problem.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 09:42:17 pm by John Koerner »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: What does it take?
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2016, 09:44:55 pm »

... My guess is that the outcome would be more the 75%.

That's what the Remain side thought too ;)
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