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Author Topic: X1D hands on  (Read 38828 times)

Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2016, 07:12:36 am »

IMO, the Leica S is a very capable camera. The sensor/lens combo is very hard to beat.

But, at 37MP, it is just too weak to consider as a pro system when 50-100MP can be had elsewhere. I don't know where the S fits anymore - it's in limbo where it doesn't cut it in a professional context and is way to expensive to compete with a dSLR.

The X1D is a much better alternative, is not even that much bigger than an M and looks like it has a decent and more certain future ahead of it - something that I think is questionable with the Leica and the S. I even wonder if the M's days are numbered.

IMO, the mp count is the last thing that MF users would care for... The only problem I find with Leica S is its price.... It's clearly much more expensive than X1D and competitive only to the H5D-50c while it doesn't offer a detachable back or the rest of the modularity that the H5D has which in return means that the advanced photographer has restricted tasks to perform with it.

IMO, the Leica S 007 is the perfect alternative for one to abandon his FF DSLR use altogether and share his MF lenses with it... Clearly the existence of OVF matters a lot to DSLR users for certain photographic tasks that can be performed with either a DSLR or an MF camera and the camera offers MF quality and rendering combined with FF DSLR flexibility.... I think the major problem with Leica S is the price... if it was closer to the X1D as to justify the existence of OVF there is (I believe) a lot of room for it...

Clearly I would take the Leica S any day instead of using a complete MF combination for tasks that can be performed with DSLRs.... I'm also sure that  no mirrorless can ever replace with the EVF the absence of a real OVF for photographic tasks which require for one to look through the lens.
Mirrorless can be great, but only in cases where one can compose without looking through the finder and then use the EVF as to frame and focus...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #101 on: July 25, 2016, 08:40:27 am »

Hi,

My point is that 37 MP is fine for say A1 size prints, and you can certainly print larger, but more pixels may be a good thing for large prints.

More to the issue, Leica said that the lenses are made for at least twice the resolution of the original S2. It may not make great sense to make lenses for say 75 MP (or more) when the sensor cannot handle more than 37 MP. What the sensor will do is to turn the excess resolution into artefacts, unless the photographer uses f/16 (or so) which blurs the image enough to eliminate the artefacts.

It is hard to utilize the full resolution of the lenses, so this may not matter in many cases, but why pay for expensive lenses if thet will not be utilised fully?

I don't think the difference between 50 MP and 37 MP is that great that matters.

But than you also need to consider the costs, say S (typ 007) + 45 + 120 mm lens -> 33k$US, Hasselblad X1D -> around 15k$US.

So the Hasselblad will give you:

- 4/3 crop (if that is an advantage is a question of taste/preferences)
- Less than half the price
- A bit more resolution
- A bit more accurate AF (CDAF is more accurate in general than PDAF)
- AF over most of the image are
- Less noise when shooting handheld

That doesn't make the Leica "worthless" or "unworthy" but it may be more attractive to the buyers whom it is intended for, buyers wanting a small and portable MFD system on a limited budget.

Best regards
Erik



IMO, the Leica S is a very capable camera. The sensor/lens combo is very hard to beat.

But, at 37MP, it is just too weak to consider as a pro system when 50-100MP can be had elsewhere. I don't know where the S fits anymore - it's in limbo where it doesn't cut it in a professional context and is way to expensive to compete with a dSLR.

The X1D is a much better alternative, is not even that much bigger than an M and looks like it has a decent and more certain future ahead of it - something that I think is questionable with the Leica and the S. I even wonder if the M's days are numbered.
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Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #102 on: July 25, 2016, 08:56:49 am »

Hi,

My point is that 37 MP is fine for say A1 size prints, and you can certainly print larger, but more pixels may be a good thing for large prints.

Mo
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hasselbladfan

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #103 on: July 25, 2016, 08:59:14 am »


But than you also need to consider the costs, say S (typ 007) + 45 + 120 mm lens -> 33k$US, Hasselblad X1D -> around 15k$US.


Eric,

The price of the Leica has started to tumble recently, making the comparison a little closer. Leica is realising this and has started to offer deals / trade-ins what they rarely did before. If you shop a bit (or are ready to go for some Mint ones), it will get closer to a 20k (Mint S) -25k (new) vs 15k for the X1D.

Don't get me wrong, I love the X1D, but the X1D is more like a second camera / travel camera to me.  The S is rock solid, the S lenses are well build (vs a bit plastic feel for the XCD). The S has a very nice OVF, faster lenses and a very nice feel / weight balance for (DSLR) action shooters.
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Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #104 on: July 25, 2016, 09:26:02 am »


My point is that 37 MP is fine for say A1 size prints, and you can certainly print larger, but more pixels may be a good thing for large prints.



This is a subject that has been ended by the makers, sientists  and sensor constructors alike ages ago... A print at 72ppi would be a perfect print for all the resolution needed as long as the pixels are of "perfect" quality... for a pixel to behave better (with less noise) size of the pixel is always beneficial for same pixel technology...  72ppi means 9 (nearly 10) pixels printed per square mm of paper size and then viewed at 27cm of distance... It isexactly the same as one trying to view 9 squares of 33cm of side each, packed in one square meter and then viewed from ...270 meters distance!!!!!

The difference to 16 pixels per square millimeter (nearly 90ppi) or 25 pixels per mm (nearly 120ppi), or 36 (6x6) pixels per square mm (nearly 144ppi) wouldn't concern even one with an eagle's eyesight...  ;) Let alone the fact that all modern sensors of even APS-C sensors would result in ABSOLUTELY HUGE prints at 144 ppi... Lets get over this childish matter and leave it to DPR forums concern.... :'(  With 37.5mp one can print A PERFECT PRINT of 9  feet length at the smaller side of the print..., If only his NORMAL lens can resolve 9 squares of 33cm side each packed in one square meter at 270meters distance! THIS should be much more of one's concern than asking to have 16 squares of 25cm side size each packed in the same square... It takes no Einstein knowledge for one to understand this simple matter...  :o
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camgarner

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #105 on: July 25, 2016, 09:54:21 am »

If I'm not mistaken, the longest exposure time for the S2 is 120 seconds.  Since I often do exposures in the 2 minute plus range it makes it useless for me.  Not everyone does long exposures but it seems like it would be a requirement for a fair number of users.  I do like the feel of the camera but why they have never upgraded the sensor is hard to understand.  On the other hand, the X1D long exposure time is 60 minutes (I believe) which is longer than I need but it sure beats 2 minutes.  Leica S2 is a fine piece of equipment but it's not keeping up with the times.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #106 on: July 25, 2016, 10:09:23 am »

Hi,

What I say is that the X1D is not a direct competitor to the Leica-S.

Right now, it's a s system of it's own.

Best regards
Erik

...

Don't get me wrong, I love the X1D, but the X1D is more like a second camera / travel camera to me.  The S is rock solid, the S lenses are well build (vs a bit plastic feel for the XCD). The S has a very nice OVF, faster lenses and a very nice feel / weight balance for (DSLR) action shooters.
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Bo Dez

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #107 on: July 25, 2016, 10:18:30 am »

In one breath you say the the Leica S is a very capable camera that is very hard to beat and in the next that it's in limbo and doesn't cut it in a professional context.

Perhaps you are a professional photographer with vast experience of using a Leica S but my problem is I've not a clue who you are or what it is you do other than spout muddled nonsense.

Is it unsurprising we keep losing seasoned pros here?

I would imagine you "keep losing seasoned pros here" because you are so rude and inhospitable, not to mention naive.

You just lost another one.
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Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #108 on: July 25, 2016, 10:27:51 am »

I would imagine you "keep losing seasoned pros here" because you are so rude and inhospitable, not to mention naive.

You just lost another one.

Now hang on a minute... I would agree with you that KLaban is (to say it politely) "following an irrelevant to logic support to his arguments"....  ;) ...but OTOH, it was you that have set the Leica's S resolution as being a problem for a pro... I must say... you are the first pro I've ever come across that questions 37.5mp of resolution as being ...low !!!!  :o  ...we pros (are supposed to) know better than that...  ;)
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razrblck

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #109 on: July 25, 2016, 10:35:19 am »

Let alone the fact that all modern sensors of even APS-C sensors would result in ABSOLUTELY HUGE prints at 144 ppi...

I can confirm. My unprofessional Nikon D7000 can print bigger than 80x50 cm (30x20 inches or 2.5x1.5 feet) at 144ppi without any need to scale up the image, and that has only 16MP (which was once high end MFD resolution). What it lacks, compared to MFD sensors, is the per pixel sharpness and microcontrast because is does have a low pass filter.

That being said I've made a 70x30 cm print on canvas recently, and considering that the natural surface texture hides the finest details I could've probably been able to print at 72ppi without noticing any difference, making prints bigger than 1m on the short side very possible (especially when not viewed up close by pixel canvas peepers).
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Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2016, 10:47:44 am »

I can confirm. My unprofessional Nikon D7000 can print bigger than 80x50 cm (30x20 inches or 2.5x1.5 feet) at 144ppi without any need to scale up the image, and that has only 16MP (which was once high end MFD resolution). What it lacks, compared to MFD sensors, is the per pixel sharpness and microcontrast because is does have a low pass filter.

That being said I've made a 70x30 cm print on canvas recently, and considering that the natural surface texture hides the finest details I could've probably been able to print at 72ppi without noticing any difference, making prints bigger than 1m on the short side very possible (especially when not viewed up close by pixel canvas peepers).

Your D7K has (IMO) the best sensor ever out of all APS-C DSLRs ever... If you can print on 72ppi with it or not and have a great print or not, is strictly a matter of the skills and technique when capturing, skills on printing techniques and lens quality... With a Leica S, you can get lens quality out of the equation, you can reduce considerably the skills on printing techniques required and then you are only left with the photographer's skills and the camera, but with the boundaries of the combination limit set much higher up the scale... In fact as high as it can go...  ;)
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synn

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2016, 10:48:38 am »

Resolution means different things to different people.

For a fine art landscape printer, more resolution is good thing, even at smaller print sizes (Oversampling). For a portrait shooter, it's not necessarily going to make things better. In my case, I am more than happy with 40MP for my portrait assignments. But when I do fine art landscape, I definitely would appreciate more.

So yes, I can see a pro like Joe Cornish wanting more pixels but one like Drew Gardner not caring much about it.

Once again, the internet (And particularly, some people) extrapolates the needs of one as the needs of all.
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Bo Dez

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #112 on: July 25, 2016, 10:57:02 am »

Now hang on a minute... I would agree with you that KLaban is (to say it politely) "following an irrelevant to logic support to his arguments"....  ;) ...but OTOH, it was you that have set the Leica's S resolution as being a problem for a pro... I must say... you are the first pro I've ever come across that questions 37.5mp of resolution as being ...low !!!!  :o  ...we pros (are supposed to) know better than that...  ;)

It is too low.

If a "seasoned pro" invested such a ridiculous amount of money on a 37MP system, they would have to hire 80-100MP when they regularly needed it. A "seasoned pro" does not invest an unfeasibly large amount of money on a system that appears to be dead in the water, that offers less than entry level resolution, and whose resolution is bested by 135 Cameras. The 5DS R's resolution makes a meal of the Leica S at a fraction of the cost. The X1D, will be better again, offering better resolution plus the benefits that a larger sensor offers.

My idea of "seasoned pro" is obviously not the same as yours.
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razrblck

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2016, 11:04:00 am »

Too bad bcooter is not posting here anymore, because he would take your definition of seasoned pro and turn it on its head.

Sometimes a pro needs speed, AF accuracy, faster workflow, tougher bodies, video capabilities, low light performance, etc. Resolution is nice, but it's not the only parameter to define a good tool from a bad tool (otherwise the Nikon D5 and Canon 1DX mk. II wouldn't exist at all).

I doubt Leica ever had landscape photographers in mind when it introduced the S. If the Leica S magazine is anything to go by the target is fashion and lifestyle togs.

Ask cooter...

Yep, he did post plenty of times a few samples from a Leica S2 (if I remember correctly), which did have a lot of shadow noise but still managed to take great pictures. Because, you know, it's also about what you shoot.
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Bo Dez

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2016, 11:08:41 am »

Because, you know, it's also about what you shoot.

Wow, imagine that.
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Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #115 on: July 25, 2016, 11:13:32 am »

Resolution means different things to different people.

For a fine art landscape printer, more resolution is good thing, even at smaller print sizes (Oversampling).


Over sampling has nothing to do with adding resolution to a print... It is only a method followed by skillful printers as to avoid/hide artifacts and thus maximize print quality... ppis are ppis and dpis are dpis, the two are irrelevant... The first contains A resolution that has been captured, the second is only relevant to the ability of the printer to maximize the information contained on a print (that can not exceed the captured resolution). Captured resolution as long as ppi are equal or more than 72 (for Epson printers) or 75 (for Canon printers) cannot be increased. 

The use of upsampling software, is a method followed by skillful printers as to avoid the printer's own upsampling process and thus linearize the print better to the dpi that the printer will use (usually upsampling to 360 ppi for a 1440 dpi print for Epson printers) but recent knowledge of how upsampling process happens on printers have lead to even better results by sampling the print to lower resolutions than the printer's own drivers would...
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Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2016, 11:26:53 am »

It is too low.

If a "seasoned pro" invested such a ridiculous amount of money on a 37MP system, they would have to hire 80-100MP when they regularly needed it. A "seasoned pro" does not invest an unfeasibly large amount of money on a system that appears to be dead in the water, that offers less than entry level resolution, and whose resolution is bested by 135 Cameras. The 5DS R's resolution makes a meal of the Leica S at a fraction of the cost. The X1D, will be better again, offering better resolution plus the benefits that a larger sensor offers.

My idea of "seasoned pro" is obviously not the same as yours.

What "seasoned pro" means beats me... I'm a "pro" fullstop... (not "all time pro" as a "season pro" would call me - which I don't give him the right to do). 

Obviously you have nothing to do with a pro as you insist posting on the importance of sensor resolution by not being able to support your argument with some evidence... If you would, you would have argued to my (fully supported) statement back in No 110... You've seen it, but you ignored to comment on it since it by definition lets your unsupported statements stand bold in thin air...

If you dare... argue with that (I remind you it's in No 110)...  ;)
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Bo Dez

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #117 on: July 25, 2016, 11:40:38 am »

What "seasoned pro" means beats me... I'm a "pro" fullstop... (not "all time pro" as a "season pro" would call me - which I don't give him the right to do). 

Obviously you have nothing to do with a pro as you insist posting on the importance of sensor resolution by not being able to support your argument with some evidence... If you would, you would have argued to my (fully supported) statement back in No 110... You've seen it, but you ignored to comment on it since it by definition lets your unsupported statements stand bold in thin air...

If you dare... argue with that (I remind you it's in No 110)...  ;)

Your chum KLabland is the one talking "seasoned pro". I have no idea what your "No 110" is and frankly I would rather prize my own teeth out with a butter knife than listen. I have zero need or inclination to justify my needs to someone who types and speaks like someone with the experience of a sixteen year old intern at their local portrait and wedding shop. Shouldn't you be getting back to mopping the floors?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 11:53:09 am by Bo Dez »
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razrblck

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2016, 11:54:48 am »

Or a professional seasoned with some delicious spices. :P
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Theodoros

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Re: X1D hands on
« Reply #119 on: July 25, 2016, 01:01:57 pm »

I have no idea what your "No 110" is...

Obviously... I would suggest you to forget your DPR attitude here... We don't particularly like bold statements or gurus of bold theories... Here is what is written at No 110 in this very discussion...

"This is a subject that has been ended by the makers, sientists  and sensor constructors alike ages ago... A print at 72ppi would be a perfect print for all the resolution needed as long as the pixels are of "perfect" quality... for a pixel to behave better (with less noise) size of the pixel is always beneficial for same pixel technology...  72ppi means 9 (nearly 10) pixels printed per square mm of paper size and then viewed at 27cm of distance... It isexactly the same as one trying to view 9 squares of 33cm of side each, packed in one square meter and then viewed from ...270 meters distance!!!!!

The difference to 16 pixels per square millimeter (nearly 90ppi) or 25 pixels per mm (nearly 120ppi), or 36 (6x6) pixels per square mm (nearly 144ppi) wouldn't concern even one with an eagle's eyesight...  ;) Let alone the fact that all modern sensors of even APS-C sensors would result in ABSOLUTELY HUGE prints at 144 ppi... Lets get over this childish matter and leave it to DPR forums concern.... :'(  With 37.5mp one can print A PERFECT PRINT of 9  feet length at the smaller side of the print..., If only his NORMAL lens can resolve 9 squares of 33cm side each packed in one square meter at 270meters distance! THIS should be much more of one's concern than asking to have 16 squares of 25cm side size each packed in the same square... It takes no Einstein knowledge for one to understand this simple matter...  :o

Now go on and wipe some floors...  ;)
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