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Author Topic: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing  (Read 6347 times)

Benny Profane

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2016, 07:11:46 pm »

Listen, dude, for the best  between us and the rest of the people here, I'm putting you on ignore. I do not want to deal with your provocations anymore. Life is too short. Have fun with your life, but, really, learn to play better with others. It's better for your health.
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enduser

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2016, 10:41:23 pm »

THere's a bit of "Ballard Street" around here now and then.  Quite harmless.
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Schewe

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2016, 02:54:29 pm »

I still don't get how good an education in printing can be if one is told to bring their laptop to edit and soft proof.

Hum, as long as you have the tools, it doesn't matter how good they are, you can still learn to use them and thus advance your knowledge and experience. Do you need a race car to learn how to drive? No...and editing and soft proofing on a laptop is completely doable assuming you have a profiled display (yes, you CAN profile a laptop) Photoshop and/or Lightroom, decent printer profiles and a printer with ink & paper.

The whole purpose of a workshop is to learn not just to use expensive equipment. I teach high end workshops and my attendees don't complain about using their own equipment because I teach them how to do what they want to learn–assuming one wants to actually learn rather than pontificate.

As far as ignoring Andrew, your choice but then you won't learn what he can teach you...assuming you want to learn, do you?
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Eric Brody

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2016, 03:26:42 pm »

Charlie Cramer (new excellent Yosemite book just released by the way, http://www.triplekite.co.uk/book-shop/charles-cramer-yosemite/), is among the best teachers I've known. I've done a lot of workshops in my day. We can all learn from one another, but learning from experts, eg Cramer, Schewe, and others, is a bonus.
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David Good

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 04:08:13 pm »

Which one's have you attended and who instructed them? That kind of makes a difference....  ;)

Andrew, indeed, I had the pleasure of attending a couple of the Epson Print Academy workshops back when it was around and you, Jeff, J.P., and Mac where instructors. Very informative and entertaining (both during and after), I learned a lot that I still apply today.
Cheers,
Dave
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Benny Profane

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2016, 08:21:41 pm »

Hum, as long as you have the tools, it doesn't matter how good they are, you can still learn to use them and thus advance your knowledge and experience. Do you need a race car to learn how to drive? No...and editing and soft proofing on a laptop is completely doable assuming you have a profiled display (yes, you CAN profile a laptop) Photoshop and/or Lightroom, decent printer profiles and a printer with ink & paper.

The whole purpose of a workshop is to learn not just to use expensive equipment. I teach high end workshops and my attendees don't complain about using their own equipment because I teach them how to do what they want to learn–assuming one wants to actually learn rather than pontificate.

As far as ignoring Andrew, your choice but then you won't learn what he can teach you...assuming you want to learn, do you?

Ok, now I'm confused. From your well marked and dog eared book in my condo: "Using a cheap commodity priced display is not doing your image evaluating any favors." (Page 69, paperback), and, a little further down the line, "I don't make any accurate color determination while I'm in the field on a laptop..." (Page 70). So, which is it? I still prefer to believe that the seven thousand dollars I've spent on a new Macpro and Eizo, housed in a dark, grey room with controlled lighting (which, in real estate terms, is another large expense in my neighborhood) is the way to go. Now, suddenly, I'm told that a laptop used for image evaluation and editing is comparable? Jeez, it's hard enough to get it right with what I have. I can't imagine the difficulty of trying to do subtle corrections with a laptop in some improvised classroom for the four days or whatever of some seminar.

Listen, I think I'm pretty aware of the economics of the whole workshop industry. It seems that, with the horrible disruption of the whole business of photography, workshops, or seminars, are now a or maybe the major source of cash flow for many, including the best. Now, to me, it seems almost impossible these days to maintain a proper educational printing lab that is profitable, because it requires a very well developed space filled with a lot of very expensive equipment that has to be properly maintained and updated. I've been asked twice in the last few years to help establish classes for Photoshop, but when I lay out the bottom line, that idea fizzles. And, no, they're not coming to my home. So, a compromise is made, and it's "bring your laptop". I understand, that's the only real viable way to do that. But, no way I'm spending that kind of money to travel a few thousand miles to do it wrong, the way I see it. (Btw, I don't even own a laptop! I backup my images when travelling, and save any sort of work for home. I own an IPad mini for travel) No, I'll sit here with your book, in my expensive print room, spend half a workshop's cost (just the workshop! Don't get me going on travel expenses.) on ink, the other half on paper, and figure it out myself. I'm not rich, and I'm not operating a business that can write that trip off as a tax deduction, so, this is my best bet, I hope. I mean, when I first stated learning Photoshop many many moons ago, I had a few awful experiences, and my employer was picking up the fee! Like, walk out of a classroom after five sessions, and think, that was a waste of time, there's gotta be a better way. And these were accredited institutions in the middle of Manhattan! So, I buckled down with Adobe literature first, and then more "advanced" and nuanced literature, and learned much better, at my own pace. It turned out Ok. It's even better today, with essentially free knowledge everywhere on the internet, if you know how to find it. This forum is one. Thanks to this forum.

Not trying to be a jerk here. My funds are limited. If I'm going to travel, I'd rather save it for a few weeks or more around Tuscany or our national parks. Or, ink. Damn ink is expensive. Oh, and a new camera. Always need a new camera. And a new lens. And.......

Thanks for the book.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 08:40:14 pm by Benny Profane »
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digitaldog

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2016, 09:07:53 pm »

Oh, and a new camera. Always need a new camera. And a new lens. And.......
Love to see some examples of your photography. You were asked before FWIW.

Oh and here's how students work with laptops and soft proofing at the workshop's I've taught; we have a reference display system HOOKED UP to the printer being used for soft proofing and of course printing. You still need students to setup soft proofing on a laptop just to learn out to setup a soft proof.

It's kind of useful to have a lick of experience at a workshop and see how they are run before you condemn them all. Without data, you're just a person with an opinion.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:11:39 pm by digitaldog »
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Schewe

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2016, 10:04:05 pm »

Jeez, it's hard enough to get it right with what I have. I can't imagine the difficulty of trying to do subtle corrections with a laptop in some improvised classroom for the four days or whatever of some seminar.

Again, you are taking a workshop to learn how to do the work required to process and optimize an image for printing. But you won't be making serious prints at a workshop, you will be learning techniques and developing a better understanding of the process.

While I don't make serious color & tone adjustments in the field I can certainly use my laptop to optimize an image, soft proof it and print it and get a really good print. But it's a throw away print...it's a sample print not a final fine art print, ya know? It's for the purpose of learning which is what you are paying for.
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Benny Profane

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2016, 10:18:10 pm »

Again, you are taking a workshop to learn how to do the work required to process and optimize an image for printing. But you won't be making serious prints at a workshop, you will be learning techniques and developing a better understanding of the process.

While I don't make serious color & tone adjustments in the field I can certainly use my laptop to optimize an image, soft proof it and print it and get a really good print. But it's a throw away print...it's a sample print not a final fine art print, ya know? It's for the purpose of learning which is what you are paying for.

Ok, I get that, I guess. Listen, I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, because you're ingrained in the educational community, and probably have a lot of friends and colleagues in the business. At the very high end. But, really, what could somebody like myself, a very experienced retoucher, or, Photoshop expert, who has made thousands of press proofs (for accuracy) in his life, actually learn from a "printing" workshop, that would reveal much more than what you tell me in your book? You know, that was worth the high fee?
The way I see it right now, I just have to decide on my four or five or six papers from all the samples I'm going through, and just buckle down and get it down. If somebody's going to tell me how to make a print "better" using Photoshop, well, I've got that covered. Anything else? Again, not trying to be an ass, just wondering.
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Damir

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2016, 06:00:05 am »

As a professional photographer, and person who, in the past, attended some workshops on photography, also a person who hold classes on photography on regular basis, even teach photography in the schools I can say that the matter of workshops and seminars are more complicated than it seems. In this discussion everyone is partially right.

There are many classes and workshops out there that are made just for pulling out money form attenders. There are also some excellent workshops that will save you time and money and put you on higher level of doing something – level which you will need years to reach by yourself, or maybe you will never reach it by yourself. Like in every industry or market there are god products, and bad products.

Every photographer and printmaker have his own path or call it workflow if you wish, that is optimized for him, and this depends on knowledge, experience and goal that should be reached. It may or may not suit you, at the end you will need to find your own way to do things. Of course there are some fundamentals that are the same for every workflow – but simple tips and tricks are that matters. Learning tips and tricks without fundamental knowledge is meaningless. So almost every workshop cover that, therefore if someone who is experienced and active working person attend workshop he will be boring by most of the time, but if you learn something new, one tiny piece of knowledge that can improve or speed up your own work it worth it.

There is also question of evaluation of someone’s work – when you do it all by yourself you will never know what more experienced user may thing of your work, where are you in the process, are you at the bottom or at the top, is there some room for improvement or not. Sometimes interaction with other participants is more valuable than interaction with teacher. You can see what others are  doing, that can trigger your self-confidence if you are better than them, or make you humble student when you realized that you are not as good as you thing you are.
It is really complex interaction
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fattkid

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2016, 10:04:56 pm »

Hey folks,

Thank you for all the info and discussion! It's really helpful. Sorry for the late reply - I just got back from Mono Lake and Bristlecone Pine Forest :) And I've been getting my printer set up.

Yeah, an IPF 8400 is definitely a brave decision for a first printer - I was on the fence between that and the 6400, but I hope to sell fine art prints at some point, and felt the 6400 24" might be limiting. I'm an all or nothing, all in kinda guy :)

As for workshops - I am an artist by trade, and I've taken quite a few workshops along the way. I've found them to be a great value, especially compared to a college education for learning the same or similar subjects. Some were great. Worth their weight in gold and almost made me better instantly because of the quality of instruction and information. I've also taken workshops that were pretty much a complete wast of money. It can be hit or miss. I learned to be very selective about taking workshops. Researching the teacher, their portfolio, work history etc.

That being said, YouTube the internet, and plain old practice and experience are great teachers. It's only when I feel I need some focused or specialized training, as well as a professional instructor and like minded peers to talk to and work with, do I consider a workshop.

Capture 1 looks interesting. I am not really familiar with that program. Is it like a higher end image editing program, like Lightroom? Only better? What are it's advantages over Lightroom?

Hey Andrew Rodney/ Digitaldog - I just realized I've been watching your videos on YouTube over the last few days. Thank you for creating those.

Thanks again for the links and everything. If you see me on the forums, I'm a humble and motivated student, so feel free to drop knowledge bombs as you see fit :)

-Trevor








« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 11:29:14 am by fattkid »
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Volatile_Proximity

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Re: New to printing: Seeking info and resources on printing
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2016, 06:36:18 pm »

I'm also new to printing, having purchased the Epson P800 a few months back. There probably isn't any advice I can offer that hasn't been covered already, by more knowledgeable folks than me.

I will say this, though. Use a good monitor, and keep it calibrated. When I replaced my iMac, I bought a Mac Mini. I was looking at monitors...Eizo and NEC, mainly...until a pro photographer who I greatly respect recommended one of the Dell Ultrasharp displays. Instead of the standard 27"...he recommended the 24" display, with it's 16:10 aspect ratio. So I bought one. I couldn't be happier with it. Having the extra height makes the display "look" big, and applications fit nicely without resizing/scrolling. As far as printer output, the prints I'm getting are dead-on. I never get any surprises. What I see on the monitor is what I see on the paper. Can't ask for more than that.

Paper opinions are all over the map. As others have suggested, get samples and experiment. I like darkroom prints, so Canson Baryta Photographique and Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta work well for me, in color or b&w. They seem to be nearly identical papers in my experience. Canson Platine is very nice, as is the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Satin Baryta (my second favorite paper thus far). I love printing :)

Good luck.



Hey folks,

Thank you for all the info and discussion! It's really helpful. Sorry for the late reply - I just got back from Mono Lake and Bristlecone Pine Forest :) And I've been getting my printer set up.

Yeah, an IPF 8400 is definitely a brave decision for a first printer - I was on the fence between that and the 6400, but I hope to sell fine art prints at some point, and felt the 6400 24" might be limiting. I'm an all or nothing, all in kinda guy :)

As for workshops - I am an artist by trade, and I've taken quite a few workshops along the way. I've found them to be a great value, especially compared to a college education for learning the same or similar subjects. Some were great. Worth their weight in gold and almost made me better instantly because of the quality of instruction and information. I've also taken workshops that were pretty much a complete wast of money. It can be hit or miss. I learned to be very selective about taking workshops. Researching the teacher, their portfolio, work history etc.

That being said, YouTube the internet, and plain old practice and experience are great teachers. It's only when I feel I need some focused or specialized training, as well as a professional instructor and like minded peers to talk to and work with, do I consider a workshop.

Capture 1 looks interesting. I am not really familiar with that program. Is it like a higher end image editing program, like Lightroom? Only better? What are it's advantages over Lightroom?

Hey Andrew Rodney/ Digitaldog - I just realized I've been watching your videos on YouTube over the last few days. Thank you for creating those.

Thanks again for the links and everything. If you see me on the forums, I'm a humble and motivated student, so feel free to drop knowledge bombs as you see fit :)

-Trevor
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