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Author Topic: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)  (Read 17935 times)

digitaldog

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LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« on: June 30, 2016, 08:44:29 PM »


Over on the Adobe forums (https://forums.adobe.com/message/8848998#8848998), reports of both new versions of PS/LR are not printing correctly. I'm seeing this on my end too. I got confirmation this is indeed a 'bug' from (Adobe? Apple? Epson?) we've seen this all before but it's been some years. Got confirmations this is the issue: Apple killed the old CMProfileRef ColorSync APIs.
Figures since both app's are affected, I'd post this data point here. So beware.
Tomorrow I'll measure targets from LR/PS and PS CS6 (it works fine) and report the dE differences. Or just don't use either products on Mac to print!  :-\
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2016, 08:54:44 PM »

VERY interesting, because just over the past two days I have been experiencing major disconnects between reference and measured patch values on my newly created profile round-tripping. I didn't think of broken system CM softwre as the cause, but rather perhaps some profiling glitch, however I wasn't convinced of that either because I was using the same saved workflows in i1Profiler I used in the past, and re-measurement today of test charts printed back in March returned correct values, so the i1Pro2 works OK.

Now, I printed my profiling targets with the ACPU, so I'm wondering whether this CM problem also applies to ACPU output, in which case the printed profiling charts are garbage, or only to the printed round-trip test patches I made from the new profiles. This is quite a mess and suggests I should stop wasting ink and paper until the matter gets resolved.

For those of us on the CC subscription plan, is there a way to roll-back to the previous version? Or would that not matter if it is an Apple problem. If it's an Apple problem why does it show up just now, as the El Capitan upgrade has been with us for a while now. I wonder how all this works for Windows users.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2016, 09:06:39 PM »

The differences, at least on my 3880 is subtle visually. Enough that when I viewed my color reference image, I knew something wasn't right but it didn't stick out like a sore thumb. But yeah, this is broken. Adobe admitted it. I'll have some better idea how different (and where) this occurs tomorrow after the targets dry down. You can try re-profiling which should work, but should you have to? No. Further, how could both LR and PS get released without anyone testing it? A sad, rhetorical question that don't need an answer.
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digitaldog

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2016, 09:15:27 PM »

Actually Mark you're right. I don't see how we can profile our way out of this mess. Now IF LR or PS allowed us to print our targets without color management and the new API affected this, we could. Sending a target through the very old ACPU isn't going to transfer to the new Adobe app's, how can it? Big mess. Best we can do is print in older versions of both LR and PS until someone fixes this bug.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2016, 09:18:18 PM »

Indeed - reprofiling seems not to be the solution this time because the disconnects I'm getting are based on profiling and testing with the same up-dated versions of Photoshop and Lightroom CC, and the results indicate very substantial disconnects between reference values and printed values of the measured patches. For clarity, I printed the new profiling targets with ACPU, created the profiles with i1Pro2/i1Profiler using a standard workflow, and then printed my test patches with those new profiles in Photoshop CC (new) using Absolute RI as usual, and the measurements are way off. I'm beginning to wonder whether there is a disconnect between the use of ACPU and Photoshop's latest version, as that could perhaps explain why re-profiling is not solving anything. But we need ACPU to print unmanaged profiling targets!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2016, 09:26:34 PM »

And how do we get the old versions back?

Big lesson of experience here: do not upgrade until the more eager customers notify Adobe of the bugs and Adobe fixes them. This is my usual mode, but I was keen to use some new tools in the new versions. Trust in QC is once again seriously shaken.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 09:38:09 PM »

And how do we get the old versions back?

Big lesson of experience here: do not upgrade until the more eager customers notify Adobe of the bugs and Adobe fixes them. This is my usual mode, but I was keen to use some new tools in the new versions. Trust in QC is once again seriously shaken.


Good question, and asked over on the Adobe forum. I have no idea how to do this with CC and hopefully an Adobe employee will tell us.
Personally, I have LR5 and Photoshop CS6 installed and plan to keep them that way as long as they will run.
This isn't our father's (well our older) Adobe with this messy and untested release of both products over the last couple years.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2016, 09:55:53 PM »

Agreed - they have major QC issues in Adobe. Something as basic as this should never have escaped. Even if it originates from something Apple did, my understanding is that Apple notifies application developers of such changes at least 6 months before the change goes public so they have time to adapt and there should be no surprises. I wonder if this is true. These guys need more real-time co-operation and attention to detail. Rant over.

Now back to the issue of previous versions, someone on the Forum just provided a link for LR previous version. I also need Photoshop so I posted a request for the route to that one. I'll see if any of this works, otherwise I may need to revert to my 10.6.8. drive and Photoshop CS6 for printing. A mess indeed. Not sure the Epson P800 driver is available for that far back, but it will be fine for the 4900. Best that Adobe get this mess fixed ASAP.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2016, 10:12:33 PM »

Conrad just posted an updated link on how to roll-back to previous versions in CC. Here it is for those who will need it till they fix the mess:

Rolling Back
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2016, 10:31:05 PM »

Conrad just posted an updated link on how to roll-back to previous versions in CC. Here it is for those who will need it till they fix the mess:

Rolling Back
You beat me to it, thanks.
Since I have CS6/LR5 installed, I think for the time being I'll use them just for printing.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2016, 10:35:24 PM »

You beat me to it, thanks.
Since I have CS6/LR5 installed, I think for the time being I'll use them just for printing.

Uhuh, but there may be one "gotcha": what happens if you have performed edits in the new LR version with tools that did not exist in the previous version (such as the new Transform toolbox with the new implementation of Upright). Presumably the older version of LR will not recognize these edits, so it will be necessary to render the raw file from the new version into a TIFF, and then print the TIFF from a previous version.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2016, 09:42:12 AM »

I want to reprint and test Photoshop CC 2015.5 vs. LR CC 2015.6 again because they are providing differences too large as well. I want to make sure I didn't pick the wrong RI between each print as a sanity check. But the differences between Photoshop CS6 and Photoshop CC 2015 are huge:


Difference between Photoshop CS6 and CC 2015.5


--------------------------------------------------


dE Report


Number of Samples: 700


Delta-E Formula dE2000


Overall - (700 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   3.23
    Max dE:  15.66
    Min dE:   0.07
 StdDev dE:   3.01


Best 90% - (629 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   2.36
    Max dE:   6.57
    Min dE:   0.07
 StdDev dE:   1.27


Worst 10% - (71 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:  10.91
    Max dE:  15.66
    Min dE:   6.58
 StdDev dE:   3.04


--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------


Difference between Photoshop CC 2015.5 and Lightroom CC 2015.6:


--------------------------------------------------


dE Report


Number of Samples: 700


Delta-E Formula dE2000


Overall - (700 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   2.28
    Max dE:   4.43
    Min dE:   0.25
 StdDev dE:   0.83


Best 90% - (629 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   2.12
    Max dE:   3.33
    Min dE:   0.25
 StdDev dE:   0.69


Worst 10% - (71 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   3.75
    Max dE:   4.43
    Min dE:   3.33
 StdDev dE:   0.29


--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
That is not good! LRCC and PSCC should be closer, far closer! I think more testing is in order to see if that's also an issue.


Here's the deltaE sorted in ColorThink so you can see the issues are largest with blues.

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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2016, 10:11:53 AM »

Yes, my measured outcomes also show the largest errors in Blues and other colours with a substantial Blue component. But none of it is any good.

You know Andrew, what bothers me the most about this, apart from all the wasted time, ink and paper I've consumed over the past several days on the research I'm doing, is that we've seen this movie before, and one would think by now that Adobe would have sufficient QC procedures in place not to let this happen to THEIR applications, regardless of whether the problem started with something Apple did or not. Even assuming a move by Apple is at the core of the issue, Adobe should have known about this and dealt with it before issuing these new versions and causing this mess. This is core functionality, while the new versions only add some nice features - they could have waited until between Adobe and Apple the colour management issues get sorted out. And who is responsible for the consequences? Will Adobe excuse a couple of months of subscription payments to compensate me for the waste that happened over the past few days? It will be Frosty Friday in Hell before that happens!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2016, 12:54:46 PM »

Andrew, Mark

Any idea if this bug affects people that let the printer manage color? If it happens there too that's a big population of folks that will just tweak their images when the print seems off then have to tweak back when Adobe/Apple fixes this. What a mess.
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digitaldog

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2016, 01:02:54 PM »

Any idea if this bug affects people that let the printer manage color? If it happens there too that's a big population of folks that will just tweak their images when the print seems off then have to tweak back when Adobe/Apple fixes this. What a mess.
Printer Color Management (according to Adobe) is fine. I don't think that's an acceptable fix or suggestion for some (many?). But Adobe should point that out as well as provide simple instructions how people can roll back one version so they can continue to print. They should also let their customers know if it's possible to have that older version and the current installed at the same time such that one could use the older app just for printing.
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Doug Gray

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2016, 01:17:11 PM »

Printer Color Management (according to Adobe) is fine. I don't think that's an acceptable fix or suggestion for some (many?). But Adobe should point that out as well as provide simple instructions how people can roll back one version so they can continue to print. They should also let their customers know if it's possible to have that older version and the current installed at the same time such that one could use the older app just for printing.

So apparently this bug is limited to those of us that depend on good color management. How nice.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2016, 01:24:57 PM »

They should also let their customers know if it's possible to have that older version and the current installed at the same time such that one could use the older app just for printing.

For Photoshop, the answer is yes. I now have both Photoshop CC 2015 and CC 2015.5 installed on the same system drive and roll-back one works. I made a test print with it earlier today. I don't know for LR. The research I'm doing needs Absolute R.I, which LR doesn't provide so I am on Photoshop for the time being.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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bjanes

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2016, 01:32:05 PM »

Over on the Adobe forums (https://forums.adobe.com/message/8848998#8848998), reports of both new versions of PS/LR are not printing correctly. I'm seeing this on my end too. I got confirmation this is indeed a 'bug' from (Adobe? Apple? Epson?) we've seen this all before but it's been some years. Got confirmations this is the issue: Apple killed the old CMProfileRef ColorSync APIs.
Figures since both app's are affected, I'd post this data point here. So beware.
Tomorrow I'll measure targets from LR/PS and PS CS6 (it works fine) and report the dE differences. Or just don't use either products on Mac to print!  :-\

Andrew,

I haven't read this entire thread, but does this problem affect Windows users also?

Bill
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2016, 01:37:07 PM »

Andrew,

I haven't read this entire thread, but does this problem affect Windows users also?

Hi Bill,

I'm not Andrew, but he said in his first post "Got confirmations this is the issue: Apple killed the old CMProfileRef ColorSync APIs".

So if that's the root cause, then it's unlikely to cause issues on Windows machines.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 02:30:23 PM by BartvanderWolf »
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Doug Gray

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Re: LR CC 2015.6 and Photoshop CC 2015.5 print bug (Mac)
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2016, 01:50:58 PM »

Hi Bill,

I'm not Andrew, but he said in his first post ""Got confirmations this is the issue: Apple killed the old CMProfileRef ColorSync APIs.

So if that's the root cause, then it's unlikely to cause issues on Windows machines.

Cheers,
Bart

I can confirm that Windows and the latest Photoshop work as well as ever and I'm picky about color. I think Andrew's note about the Apple API change in their XCode toolset is the culprit.

Turns out my automatic Photoshop Update stopped and I don't have the latest addition. Am testing it now.

Verified. CC 2015.1.5 works fine in windows. Identical results.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 03:50:41 PM by Doug Gray »
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