Interesting discussion with Hasselbald's product manager Ove Bengtsson

[mi-fu]

shutter is a drop in part procured from 3rd party...

I fear it is that simple. Now X1d has no moving part. With a shutter, the whole body design will be a lot more complicated (damping, vibration all need to be taken into consideration).

Actually i don't know if there is any existing shutter specific for 44x33 sensors as well. Full frame 645 sensor's shutter will clearly be too big (unless one makes a bigger camera).

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't think there are a lot of MFD FP shutters around. Both the Pentax shutters and the Mamiya shutter used in Phase One and the Alpa FPS have been demonstrated to have issues with vibrations.

That is not to say that FPS cannot be made, just that it may not be a piece of cake to integrate a third party FP shutter in a small body. But, yes, I do feel a FPS would make the camera more flexible.

Best regards
Erik

I fear it is that simple. Now X1d has no moving part. With a shutter, the whole body design will be a lot more complicated (damping, vibration all need to be taken into consideration).

Actually i don't know if there is any existing shutter specific for 44x33 sensors as well. Full frame 645 sensor's shutter will clearly be too big (unless one makes a bigger camera).

[BernardLanguillier]

A FPS was clearly totally incompatible with the design philosophy of the X1D.

It would be like asking Apple to add a bakelite handle to an iPhone 6.

Cheers,
Bernard

[scyth]

Both the Pentax shutters and the Mamiya shutter used in Phase One and the Alpa FPS have been demonstrated to have issues with vibrations.

all FPS have issues with (shutter shock) vibrations, even m43 cameras ( as tests with analog oscillograph @ dpreview forum showed ) ... however H is no smaller or less capable company than Alpa, so drop in shutter from a 3rd party is not a big deal by itself... the lack of EFCS is totally different matter.

[scyth]

A FPS was clearly totally incompatible with the design philosophy of the X1D.

true... just like CMOS sensor for MF cameras, till they get a proper one

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

When that A7r arrived I didn't buy into it. Lack of EFCS and phase detection were the main causes. The A7 had those features but was clearly not high end and just 24 MP. So, i waited until the A7rII arrived. I am quite happy with that one. No, it is not perfect, but it does the stuff I want it to do…

Best regards
Erik

all FPS have issues with (shutter shock) vibrations, even m43 cameras ( as tests with analog oscillograph @ dpreview forum showed ) ... however H is no smaller or less capable company than Alpa, so drop in shutter from a 3rd party is not a big deal by itself... the lack of EFCS is totally different matter.

[mi-fu]

Hi,

I don't think there are a lot of MFD FP shutters around. Both the Pentax shutters and the Mamiya shutter used in Phase One and the Alpa FPS have been demonstrated to have issues with vibrations.

That is not to say that FPS cannot be made, just that it may not be a piece of cake to integrate a third party FP shutter in a small body. But, yes, I do feel a FPS would make the camera more flexible.

Best regards
Erik

Yes yes. There was a big typo in my original message. I meant "I fear it is NOT that simple (to just drop in a third party shutter)"

Thanks a lot for further elaborating on it

[uaiomex]

Perhaps Sony has already told their sensor customers (under nda) that sensors with global shutters will show up rather sooner than later.

A FPS was clearly totally incompatible with the design philosophy of the X1D.

It would be like asking Apple to add a bakelite handle to an iPhone 6.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Perhaps Sony has already told their sensor customers (under nda) that sensors with global shutters will show up rather sooner than later.

Yes, perhaps. There is little doubt that it is only a matter of months/years until those are readily available.

But my guess is that Hassy wanted a body without any moving part to simplify design and manufacturing.

Cheers,
Bernard

[hjulenissen]

Perhaps Sony has already told their sensor customers (under nda) that sensors with global shutters will show up rather sooner than later.

My thoughts exactly.

Hasselblad might "know" that in the next revision of this camera, global shutter (and PDAF?) will be available from Sony, so get the long term system design right, get an early model in the market, start generating sales and get a lead on competitors.

How much easier is it to design a camera like this (not talking about lenses), than a traditional such camera with more moving parts and possibly CCD? Is it possible for a really small group (say competent but with little camera experience) to pick a (expensive) Sony sensor, some standard embedded/consumer SOC/touchscreen with standard OS/SW, do some nice industrial design and have a viable product?

-h

[synn]

If I am not mistaken, I read somewhere that this camera does have EFCS. Just no FPS to complete the exposure, only the leaf shutter.

[ErikKaffehr]

Thanks for that posting…

Best regards
Erik

If I am not mistaken, I read somewhere that this camera does have EFCS. Just no FPS to complete the exposure, only the leaf shutter.

[scyth]

If I am not mistaken, I read somewhere that this camera does have EFCS. Just no FPS to complete the exposure, only the leaf shutter.

this is how EFCS works emulating a mechanical first FP shutter blade moving across the sensor (row by row, following by the actual second FP shutter blade)

    The shutter stays open at the beginning of the exposure. Instead of having a mechanical front curtain, the image is cleared from the sensor, pixel row by pixel row, in the same direction and with the same speed as with a mechanical shutter. Exposure of each row of photo sites starts immediately after it is cleared. This is possible, because you are not interested in the image that was stored in the photo sites before clearing them, only in the image that is created afterwards.
    After some delay, which again is the exposure time, the (mechanical) rear curtain starts to close, trailing the clearing of pixel rows with the same direction and speed. Pixel rows covered by the rear curtain then receive no more light.
    When the rear curtain has closed, the camera can read out the entire image from the sensor and process it.
    Then the mechanical shutter can open again.

now how do you suggest this EFCS procedure works with leaf shutter blades movements (and they cover sensor in a totally different manner) and row by row operation of EFCS procedure ? can you clarify ... sensor might as well be capable of EFCS operation - but w/o FPS it makes no sense

[synn]

I am certainly not an expert and I cannot find the article at the moment, but I believe it will emulate the movement of an FPS. the leaf shutter completes the exposure, thereby giving us the benefits of flash sync at any speed etc.

I might be completely mistaken about this, though.

[eronald]

My thoughts exactly.

Hasselblad might "know" that in the next revision of this camera, global shutter (and PDAF?) will be available from Sony, so get the long term system design right, get an early model in the market, start generating sales and get a lead on competitors.

How much easier is it to design a camera like this (not talking about lenses), than a traditional such camera with more moving parts and possibly CCD? Is it possible for a really small group (say competent but with little camera experience) to pick a (expensive) Sony sensor, some standard embedded/consumer SOC/touchscreen with standard OS/SW, do some nice industrial design and have a viable produc

-h

The electronic issue I see is reading the data off the sensor and then writing it into flash, preferably after applying fpn removal (for commercial reasons). One needs to manage the reading, buffering writing etc at the same time as the camera stays available for a new capture.

My feeling is thqt the electronic design to achieve high throughput needs to be carefully managed; I don't know whether  Sony license a downstream reference "camera in a box" complete with Jpeg generator for this sensor although I expect they do it for low-end devices.

Edmund

[Graham Welland]

Both the Pentax shutters and the Mamiya shutter used in Phase One and the Alpa FPS have been demonstrated to have issues with vibrations.

Erik,

I'm pretty sure that the Mamiya shutter used in the Alpa FPS has NOT been subject to issues ... In fact, based on tests even here on Lula by Marc Dubovoy it's quite the opposite compared to Phase One / Pentax dslr platforms.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Graham,

I have seen two-three reports to the opposite from long time FPS users.

Just a small point, there is a law of physics called conservation of momentum.Accelarating a mass, like a focal plane shutter blade, will cause a movement in the opposite direction in the surrounding mass. That movement can be absorbed by dampers but not eliminated entirely.

A good example of that was the original A7r. It measurably lost resolution at medium shutter times, but the induced camera shake didn't cause obvious camera motion artefacts. So the camera shake was not obvious, but quite enough to reduce resolution from say 36 MP to around 24 MP. This was very obvious in measurements but not very obvious in test shots.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

I'm pretty sure that the Mamiya shutter used in the Alpa FPS has NOT been subject to issues ... In fact, based on tests even here on Lula by Marc Dubovoy it's quite the opposite compared to Phase One / Pentax dslr platforms.

[Rob C]

Hi Graham,

I have seen two-three reports to the opposite from long time FPS users.

Just a small point, there is a law of physics called conservation of momentum.Accelarating a mass, like a focal plane shutter blade, will cause a movement in the opposite direction in the surrounding mass. That movement can be absorbed by dampers but not eliminated entirely.

A good example of that was the original A7r. It measurably lost resolution at medium shutter times, but the induced camera shake didn't cause obvious camera motion artefacts. So the camera shake was not obvious, but quite enough to reduce resolution from say 36 MP to around 24 MP. This was very obvious in measurements but not very obvious in test shots.

Best regards
Erik

Best regards
Erik

From when I was a kid: to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/newton.html

Rob

[vjbelle]

Erik,

I'm pretty sure that the Mamiya shutter used in the Alpa FPS has NOT been subject to issues ... In fact, based on tests even here on Lula by Marc Dubovoy it's quite the opposite compared to Phase One / Pentax dslr platforms.

That has not been my experience, which is why I don't own and would never own this camera, and I have images to support this up.  I go back about 3 years since I briefly had an Alpa FPS but it clearly had shutter shock just like ALL fps's do.  Even if they (Alpa) have damped and damped they cannot completely eliminate this issue. 

Victor

[Graham Welland]

Alpa FPS - I'm not saying that the laws of physics are different with Alpa and their FPS but since I do own and shoot with the FPS I can only say that this hasn't been an issue for me in the two years I've had it. That said, my A7r didn't ring like a bell either so maybe it's different strokes for different folks.

Victor - I'd be interested in knowing at what exposures you hit issues.