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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 292297 times)

jfirneno

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #660 on: October 24, 2016, 03:05:32 pm »

Don't take my word for it, just read my post and it will be blatantly obvious that you've been carried away in your cynical negative reaction on any critical remark about the Brexit referendum.

Okay:
I've looked at your post.  You said "I think the problem with the Brexit referendum is that everybody who voted leave didn't know what they voted for, other then to leave under unknown conditions."  You're saying that grown ups don't know what staying or leaving the EU means.  Well that sounds like you're saying they're not smart enough to make up their own minds.  That sounds cynical and negative to me.
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Farmer

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #661 on: October 24, 2016, 03:11:42 pm »

Cool!  All we have to do to escape is die.  Brilliant!

Indeed.  Whereas you've left a much longer life sentence to the younger generations with no foreseeable way to escape (the EU is not going to take the UK back following an Exit, and there's a real chance there will be no UK anyway as Scotland looks to take its own path).

So with your "perspective", you've gained at most a generation of "reprieve" and left behind "forever" for everyone else to deal with, against their collective preference.  You literally get less for murder.
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Phil Brown

jfirneno

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #662 on: October 24, 2016, 03:27:20 pm »

Indeed.  Whereas you've left a much longer life sentence to the younger generations with no foreseeable way to escape (the EU is not going to take the UK back following an Exit, and there's a real chance there will be no UK anyway as Scotland looks to take its own path).

So with your "perspective", you've gained at most a generation of "reprieve" and left behind "forever" for everyone else to deal with, against their collective preference.  You literally get less for murder.

Now, now, calm down.  It will be all right.  While I'm not sure the EU will still be around in a decade or so, I'm pretty sure that if it is they'll let you back in.  Look at Greece.  They're flat broke and can't get thrown out even if they try.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #663 on: October 24, 2016, 03:30:18 pm »

Jeremy, could you explain what you find particularly amusing here? It is simply recognised evidence of best practice, whereas your deriving inappropriate amusement from such confidential clinical records and citing them, even anonymised, in a clinically unrelated public forum is certainly not.

As I'd have thought was fairly obvious by my use of the phrase "last two words", I find the last two words amusing,  the brainless recitation of something which is blindingly obvious. As is also blindingly obvious, there's nothing "confidential" about the quoted words, which are anonymous, not anonymised.

Anyway, enough - too much - time has been spent on the rebuttal of your incorrect and irrelevant analogy. I shall waste no more.

Seems, then, that medical ethics are as suspect as political ones; and to think I have a granddaughter in medicine and another in law...

No, Rob: the ethics are fine. The paperwork is another matter.

Jeremy
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Farmer

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #664 on: October 24, 2016, 10:40:36 pm »

Now, now, calm down.  It will be all right.  While I'm not sure the EU will still be around in a decade or so, I'm pretty sure that if it is they'll let you back in.  Look at Greece.  They're flat broke and can't get thrown out even if they try.

Another assertion without evidence and another flawed analogy? :-)
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Phil Brown

pegelli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #665 on: October 25, 2016, 01:31:45 am »

Okay:
I've looked at your post.  You said "I think the problem with the Brexit referendum is that everybody who voted leave didn't know what they voted for, other then to leave under unknown conditions."  You're saying that grown ups don't know what staying or leaving the EU means.  Well that sounds like you're saying they're not smart enough to make up their own minds.  That sounds cynical and negative to me.
You're interpretation of what I wrote is late (You've only now looked at my post?) as well as wrong. My only point was that nobody knew what all the tax, immigrant and single market etc. etc. rules of the "leave" situation were going to be. If you know what these details look like maybe give David Davis a call, he's still struggling to define the GB ingoing negotiation position (so your input will be highly valuable for him) and nobody knows where it will end since the negotiation process hasn't been started yet. To me that sounds like a fair description of the actual situation and is far from negative and cynical.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 07:18:15 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #666 on: October 25, 2016, 01:50:43 am »

Hi,

In this case the truth is based on negotiations that will start after article 50 has been put into effect…

So, what is truth or not is a bit difficult to foresee, isn't it?

BTW, didn't Great Britain try hard negotiations with the EU before going into the referendum on remain or exit?

Best regards
Erik


And back to the topic: who's to say that the info given to voters is true, even if they read it? Are some people, or some social groups, or some governments, magically blessed by only telling the truth, with no self-interest, errors of judgment, no hidden agenda, etc.? And what exactly is that truth in complex issues, where emotions and cold numbers intersect, for instance? And who is to say that cold numbers should always supersede emotions?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 05:17:45 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #667 on: October 25, 2016, 03:44:00 am »

BTW, didn't the nation formerly known as Great Britain try hard negotiations with the EU before going into the referendum on remain or exit?

Erik, please avoid spoiling what might be a sensible point by silly comment. My country remains Great Britain and it will continue to be Great Britain (Scotland is going nowhere, however Sturgeon might posture).

Yes, there were negotiations. Cameron was humiliated, deliberately; that is, at least in part, why the country voted to leave the EU (not the humiliation, of course: the lack of achievement, on both sides). I suspect all concerned now regret the approach.

Jeremy
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #668 on: October 25, 2016, 05:21:26 am »

Hi,

Sorry for the silly comment. I removed it. And I will not joke about it in the future.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, please avoid spoiling what might be a sensible point by silly comment. My country remains Great Britain and it will continue to be Great Britain (Scotland is going nowhere, however Sturgeon might posture).

Yes, there were negotiations. Cameron was humiliated, deliberately; that is, at least in part, why the country voted to leave the EU (not the humiliation, of course: the lack of achievement, on both sides). I suspect all concerned now regret the approach.

Jeremy
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Nick Walker

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #669 on: October 25, 2016, 05:34:40 am »

Erik, please avoid spoiling what might be a sensible point by silly comment. My country remains Great Britain and it will continue to be Great Britain (Scotland is going nowhere, however Sturgeon might posture)

Jeremy

I have 'great' affinity for the scots (family tree), but Sturgeon bemuses me. Staunchly, she and the SNP want independence from England (even prior to EU vote) and yet wants closer ties with Europe. Ironically if Scotland gained independence they might end up with a bigger deficit than Greece - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/24/scotlands-huge-deficit-blows-15bn-hole-in-case-for-independence/

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oil-price-slump-lands-scotland-with-bigger-deficit-than-greece-52w0h97cq - shortfall in the Scottish economy is being met by rest of UK taxpayers.  2015-16 size of Scotland's deficit, £14.8 billion + £500 million from the year before.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #670 on: October 25, 2016, 05:53:30 am »

Scotland is not bound to remain in GB.

I was very anti Scottish Independence prior to the Brexit fiasco, and fiasco it is regardless of the blind bleatings to the contrary. Living in Europe and not the UK, I have a bit more clear an idea than most who do not have that experience. It is no ideal situation, but almost anything is preferable to isolation from one's best market. Anybody with any business experience knows that. And business is the key to all relationships between countries.

But, back to Scotland. As against Scottish Independence as I was, and as were most of the people I have met, minds change when the population numbers cause reckless economic harm, which is what Brexit has done. You'd be surprised how many former UK fans have changed opinion. Yes, the economic difficulties for an Indy Scotland remain, but then they have just got worse under the present system, too. Perhaps it's now time for an even greater change?

I'm honestly surprised at those who still contend that leaving Europe has been a good thing. How anyone can doubt the vital importance of interdependency in commerce just amazes me. And make no mistake: success and survival in this world is all about commerce. Yet, in the Brexit fiasco, it was all about migrants and fears of foreigners, including other Europeans, the very people to whose lands we go, to enjoy living their lifestyle, for the best, annual two weeks in our lives! As they say, you could not make it up. Unless you'e English, of course, and have never yet left the farm.

;-)

Rob
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 08:57:52 am by Rob C »
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stamper

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #671 on: October 25, 2016, 05:56:56 am »



I have 'great' affinity for the scots (family tree), but Sturgeon bemuses me. Staunchly, she and the SNP want independence from England (even prior to EU vote) and yet wants closer ties with Europe. Ironically if Scotland gained independence they might end up with a bigger deficit than Greece - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/24/scotlands-huge-deficit-blows-15bn-hole-in-case-for-independence/

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oil-price-slump-lands-scotland-with-bigger-deficit-than-greece-52w0h97cq - shortfall in the Scottish economy is being met by rest of UK taxpayers.  2015-16 size of Scotland's deficit, £14.8 billion + £500 million from the year before.

What Scot in their right mind wants to remain associated with this economic mess?

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

Why do the English want Scotland to remain in the UK if Scotland is a burden?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #672 on: October 25, 2016, 06:43:39 am »

it was all about migrants and fears of foreigners, including other Europeans, the very people to whose lands we go, to enjoy living their lifestyle...

Rob, I can totally picture you taking snaps around Dracula's castle in Romanian mountains, or nice Polish girls in potato fields, or enjoying bites of Bulgarian pepper, chased with shots of plum brandy  :D
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 08:31:13 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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jfirneno

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #673 on: October 25, 2016, 07:03:21 am »

Another assertion without evidence and another flawed analogy? :-)

You're right!  They'll never let you back in!  The sky is falling!
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #674 on: October 25, 2016, 08:33:03 am »

Rob, I can totally picture you taking snaps around Dracula's castle in Romanian mountains, or nice Polish girls in potato fields, or enjoying bites of Bulgarian paprika, chased with plum brandy  :D


Plum brandy? Really like poire...

From a recent tourism promotion campaign shot after sunset in the presence of the Count himself:



(The castle is now run by a secret branch of Hilton. Which might explain a lot.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S92hdrCNI7U

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #675 on: October 25, 2016, 08:41:44 am »

...Sorry for the silly comment. I removed it. And I will not joke about it in the future...

Oh, come on Erik, that was a good one, don't be so easily beaten into submission by Jeremy, a.k.a. The Staunch P.C. Warrior!  ;) ;D

When it comes to humor, my stance is that everything is a fair game. Just check Jeremy's and others' jokes about dead people in another thread. Particularly appropriate targets are anything and anyone that calls themselves "Great..."  :)

Nick Walker

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #676 on: October 25, 2016, 10:47:12 am »


What Scot in their right mind wants to remain associated with this economic mess?

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

Why do the English want Scotland to remain in the UK if Scotland is a burden?

I have never thought that Scotland was a burden. I was fully aware that the UK has a large deficit problem but unaware until recently that Scotland isn't sitting so pretty either when it comes to debt.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 01:52:16 pm by N Walker »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #677 on: October 25, 2016, 01:24:06 pm »

Hi Slobodan,

Thanks! But I didn't mean to offend anyone. Also, a promise is a promise, I will never ever joke on that theme.

On the other hand, this thing is nothing funny. There are some three million perfectly legal immigrants in GB from Poland and there are some two million perfectly legal immigrants from GB in Europe. The living conditions of those people is gravely endangered  by Brexit negotiations, especially as it seems that the May government is aiming to a "hard Brexit".

Free movement is very important to EU and it is extremely unlikely that the EU will accept a solution not involving free movement and least not forget, the major group of migrants to UK within the EU comes from Poland, one of the large countries within the EU.

Loosing UK is a loss for north Europe, with balance of power shifting to south.

In a great part, this is caused by politicians, they always blame EU and Bruxelles for everything unpopular and take credits for things popular.

Best regards
Erik

Oh, come on Erik, that was a good one, don't be so easily beaten into submission by Jeremy, a.k.a. The Staunch P.C. Warrior!  ;) ;D

When it comes to humor, my stance is that everything is a fair game. Just check Jeremy's and others' jokes about dead people in another thread. Particularly appropriate targets are anything and anyone that calls themselves "Great..."  :)
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #678 on: October 25, 2016, 02:34:00 pm »

Great Britain was also designated as such to avoid confusion, centuries ago, with Brittany, France. Maybe some Breton natives of long descent have even longer memories and Brexit was a plot hatched from the other side of la Manche...

Rob C

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #679 on: October 25, 2016, 02:38:50 pm »

Sorry for the silly comment. I removed it. And I will not joke about it in the future.

Erik, please don't for one moment think I was offended! I have heard the comment many times, but it distracts from the sense (??) of the thread.

Oh, come on Erik, that was a good one, don't be so easily beaten into submission by Jeremy, a.k.a. The Staunch P.C. Warrior!  ;) ;D

When it comes to humor, my stance is that everything is a fair game. Just check Jeremy's and others' jokes about dead people in another thread. Particularly appropriate targets are anything and anyone that calls themselves "Great..."  :)

I use a Mac, Slobodan  ;) and I agree about humour.

Jeremy
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