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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 292241 times)

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2016, 06:10:17 pm »

I think that's an inherent attribute of many elections where there's only 2 choices. Looking from Europe I would say the same thing about many US presidential elections over the past decades. And I don't think the next one will be any different.

If you give a random selection of people a choice between two options and then cloud the information they are meant to decide upon in a fog of unsubstantiated claims and scaremongering on both sides then you are likely to end up with a result that is split 50-50.  This is pretty much what happened except the leaves won the tip of the balance for reasons that are not entirely clear although every pundit will have their own pet explanation.
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JV

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2016, 06:25:11 pm »

I think that's an inherent attribute of many elections where there's only 2 choices. Looking from Europe I would say the same thing about many US presidential elections over the past decades. And I don't think the next one will be any different.

Well the next one is between a candidate 55% of the population has an unfavorable opinion of and another candidate 70% of the population has an unfavorable opinion of...

It has already been described as choosing between the imperfect and the insane...
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 06:28:57 pm by JV »
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JV

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2016, 06:29:08 pm »

As someone pointed out elsewhere the older generation were the ones that were keen to enough to vote for entry into the EU when they were young and idealistic.

I believe saying that they confirmed EU membership is more accurate, the UK had already applied and it was already a member when the referendum in the seventies took place.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2016, 06:48:44 pm »

Well the next one is between a candidate 55% of the population has an unfavorable opinion of and another candidate 70% of the population has an unfavorable opinion of...

As I said in the beginning of this thread:

Quote
Brexit‬ - a lesson in (un)reliability of polls and pundits.

People react differently (more PC) when expressing their opinion publicly or being polled. Then they vote in privacy.

The same goes for the current US elections.

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2016, 06:51:07 pm »

I believe saying that they confirmed EU membership is more accurate, the UK had already applied and it was already a member when the referendum in the seventies took place.

True, it was a vote on the renegotiated terms of a much smaller EEC.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2016, 07:02:24 pm »

Jeremy, your list omitted the Daily Mail, probably the most poisonous of the anti-European papers.

You're right. My apologies. I must have wiped all thought of that ghastly rag from my mind.

Jeremy
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2016, 07:07:19 pm »

True, it was a vote on the renegotiated terms of a much smaller EEC.

Not renegotiated, but negotiated. And the key point is the then name of the organisation: the European Economic Community. We joined a trade organisation, not one committed to "ever closer union". The EU is not the EEC that we voted for in 1972.

Jeremy
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2016, 12:49:38 am »

The first thing is that this is an admirable example of what democracy should be. The majority wants it, it gets it. I would propose to apply the same approach to gun control in the US! ;)

Now, a country obviously has to be ready for the harsh reality of what the majority wants, but this is the best incentive for free high level education for all. UK obviously hadn't done that homework well enough, thanks Mrs Tatcher.

Now I do feel sorry for the large majority of Brits under 35 who wanted to stay in the EU, a part of their future has been take away from them. 100% of my friends in the UK wanted to stay in the EU, I feel sorry for them as well.

The next step within a few years is the predictable end of UK as we know it since Scotland and Northern Ireland obviously want to be in the EU and probably already feel closer to Brussels than they have been to London.

Cheers,
Bernard

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2016, 01:48:10 am »

.. this is the best incentive for free high level education for all...

Why? What makes you think that a high level education results in a single opinion, let alone a PC one? A lot of highly educated people were for the exit, and a lot highly educated people are for Trump. That's just another example of the typical condescension that whoever disagrees with me must be stupid, uneducated, racist, and bigot.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2016, 01:51:19 am »

Speaking about the press... There is an Internet meme that supposedly shows tomorrow's edition of The Guardian:  ;)

Telecaster

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2016, 01:58:41 am »

Well the next one is between a candidate 55% of the population has an unfavorable opinion of and another candidate 70% of the population has an unfavorable opinion of...

I'd say national elections are always, for sensible folk, about choosing the least bad candidate. At that level no-one is clean. Each seeming exception to this—that is, when the dirt doesn't come out 'til later—causes us to forget the rule, as when a week of warm weather in February (northern hemisphere) leaves us under-prepared for the cold & snow yet to come. A choice between well known candidates with well established positions & approaches, and all their dirty laundry on display, is IMO likelier to lead to competent if not inspirational governing than one where the savior craving effect is in play. The latter at best leads to disillusionment…and at worst is demagogue territory, where real-world knowledge & strategy don't matter because the savior will simply swoop in and "make things great again." Hopefully the post-Cameron election won't involve cynical "saviors" or be driven by an electorate insisting on them.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 02:05:33 am by Telecaster »
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muntanela

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2016, 02:25:10 am »

From Wikipedia:
"In the United Kingdom, the Continent is widely and generally used to refer to the mainland of Europe. In addition, the word Europe itself is also regularly used to mean Europe excluding the islands of Great Britain, Iceland, and Ireland (although the term is often used to refer to the European Union).
Occasionally the term mainland Europe is used. An apocryphal British newspaper headline supposedly once read, "Fog in Channel; Continent Cut Off". It has also been claimed that this was a regular weather forecast in Britain in the 1930s."
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2016, 02:37:48 am »

Not renegotiated, but negotiated. And the key point is the then name of the organisation: the European Economic Community. We joined a trade organisation, not one committed to "ever closer union". The EU is not the EEC that we voted for in 1972.

Jeremy

I was only a wee lad at the time so turned to that bastion of proper and correct reporting, the Daily Telegraph

 In his second stint as Prime Minister, leading a Government divided over the European issue, Harold Wilson held an In/Out referendum on the supposedly “renegotiated” terms of Britain’s membership of the 'Common Market’. When polling day came, the result was a two-to-one win for the 'Keep Britain in Europe’ campaign. The rest, as they say, is history.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11652504/Seven-lessons-from-Britains-1975-EEC-referendum.html

You might recognise one of the ladies campaigning for a yes vote, her enthusiasm was much less marked in later years.
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2016, 02:42:18 am »

Speaking about the press... There is an Internet meme that supposedly shows tomorrow's edition of The Guardian:  ;)

Yep, the establishment was handed their backside on a plate by the proles, long may it continue!
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pegelli

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2016, 03:07:22 am »

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pieter, aka pegelli

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2016, 03:32:46 am »

I was only a wee lad at the time so turned to that bastion of proper and correct reporting, the Daily Telegraph

 In his second stint as Prime Minister, leading a Government divided over the European issue, Harold Wilson held an In/Out referendum on the supposedly “renegotiated” terms of Britain’s membership of the 'Common Market’. When polling day came, the result was a two-to-one win for the 'Keep Britain in Europe’ campaign. The rest, as they say, is history.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11652504/Seven-lessons-from-Britains-1975-EEC-referendum.html

You might recognise one of the ladies campaigning for a yes vote, her enthusiasm was much less marked in later years.

Fair enough, but my main point stands: the vote was about whether to be a member of the EEC.

Thatcher lost her enthusiasm when the EEC morphed into the EU, when a free trade organisation became a union; and the UK has voted to leave the EU for largely similar reasons.

Jeremy
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Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2016, 03:39:08 am »

Prophetic

Lemmings are strange and aggressive creatures with wild fluctuations in population numbers. Their behavioral and reproductive patterns are poorly understood but the mass suicide events are not really anything of the sort, simply mass migrations that some fail to survive. Plenty of room for fresh and still humorous analogies there but the old 'uns are still  the best.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2016, 03:44:19 am »

Justinr

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2016, 03:44:43 am »

Fair enough, but my main point stands: the vote was about whether to be a member of the EEC.

Thatcher lost her enthusiasm when the EEC morphed into the EU, when a free trade organisation became a union; and the UK has voted to leave the EU for largely similar reasons.

Jeremy

Quite so, and as a British national myself the decay of the European ideal as a fraternity of nation states into an empire in effect ruled by just the one country has been a great disappointment.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2016, 04:25:11 am »

Fair enough, but my main point stands: the vote was about whether to be a member of the EEC.

Thatcher lost her enthusiasm when the EEC morphed into the EU, when a free trade organisation became a union; and the UK has voted to leave the EU for largely similar reasons.

Jeremy

That's the big one, debated time and again as to whether it's a true representaion of the facts or not.

Some say it was always the guideline and others say it was something that morphed into something else later on. I think the bottom line demonstrates that not enough of us, myself included, really know what's going down when these decisions are being made. How could we know? There are thousands of documents to be read - who has ever done that, and even were we able so to do, how many have the legal training to understand ramifications or even imagine them? It's why we pay politicians to do it for us on a daily basis.

I have made big enough mistakes myself in situations where I imagned I had all the facts; why depend on poor old Joe Public to make even bigger ones? That's why I think a referendum is always bad news: it depends on ignorance of the facts, little information and no political skills to arrive at hugely important decisions.

Now we have to pick up the pieces and answer to our chldren and grandchildren, and tell them why we fucked up their ability to travel, without asking anybody's permission, wherever in Europe they wanted to go, stop, and hang out their shingle should they think fit. Wonderful Boris, I owe you.

Rob

P.S. Just realised: in all of this, poor old Farage doesn't even raise an eyebrow anymore. Did his bit, served his purpose and now disappears back to where he came from. You were used, buddy, used.
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