Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 57   Go Down

Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 292243 times)

Chairman Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3352
    • flickr page
Re: Brexit
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2016, 03:15:15 pm »

The Mirror is left of centre & the Times is Tory (aka right-wing). The Guardian was a liberal/left paper, until the Scott Trust became the Scott Trust Ltd & Peter Preston stood down as editor. Since then, it's drifted to the centre (LibDem supporting) and has been fiercely anti-Corbyn, seemingly unable to miss a chance to denigrate him. Otherwise, I'd not argue too much with your list.

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4755
    • My photography site
Re: Brexit
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2016, 03:39:41 pm »

Jeremy, your list omitted the Daily Mail, probably the most poisonous of the anti-European papers.
Logged

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2292
Re: Brexit
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2016, 03:45:01 pm »

Jeremy, your list omitted the Daily Mail, probably the most poisonous of the anti-European papers.

Thank you, John - you took the words right out of my mouth ( as the song goes ..) .

From The Economist
Debunking years of tabloid claims about Europe

Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18087
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Brexit
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2016, 03:56:25 pm »

...From The Economist...

That's cherry-picking, i.e., taking into account only things that are debunked. Where is the list of those that couldn't be debunked, which actually gave credence to the false ones in the first place?

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Brexit
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2016, 04:04:02 pm »

I don't know the british politics but Mr Cameron really seems to be a grosteque political figure (cynical and stupid).

I see it rather differently: I see him as a realist who managed to drag the UK out of the socialist decline that had already consumed the Thatcher gains. (Blair was perhaps not as bad as he was eventually painted, at least he was able to steer a more moderate form of leftism.) The lukewarmth of the Liberals has never been worth much - Cameron rescued us from that unholy alliance at the last election. His ultimate error was in trusting the intelligence of the football crowds, the tabloid fodder and even his own party members.

But in the end, the Tories reverted to the thing they can't avoid because it's in the DNA: fratricide. Just as they did for Maggie and almost every other top gun they ever had. I never voted for any other party than the Tories, and today, if I had to vote again, it would probably be for the Scots Nats if only because their agenda is perfectly clear. A possible disaster, but what's the difference?

I regret the fact that our youth has been denied a wonderful panorama of life choices just to forward the aims of a greedy bunch of egomaniacs in London. May they rot in hell and somebody entirely else gets elected next time round.

Anyway, as I tried to show in my first comment on this theme, the wrong criteria were used as basis for choice. It ended up having nothing to do with Europe, jobs in Europe, exports, imports or anything else rational and quantifiable: it degenerated into fear of religious invasion. The entire campaign to quit has been one of fear and hatred. How sad to think Jo Cox had to be murdered for this result; that so many thousands of soldiers of different nationalities lie in graves in the war cemeteries of France, and all for this.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 04:13:40 pm by Rob C »
Logged

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Brexit
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2016, 04:06:49 pm »

I have to admit, the "myths" list is amusing.

As an American, I find the listings of newspapers amusing, especially the last "...The Star: Breasts" . Murdoch-owned, I presume? Or did the UK start the page 6 (or whatever number) and export it to Down Under? The Guardian is really quite left for an American, I read it online.

I would not be pleased by Brexit were I a U.K. or E.U. scientist.
Logged

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2016, 04:09:00 pm »

I see it rather differently: I see him as a realist who managed to drag the UK out of the socialist decline that had already consumed the Thatcher gains. (Blair was perhaps not as bad as he was eventually painted, at least he was able to steer a more moderate form of leftism.) The lukewarmth of the Liberals has never been worth much - Cameron rescued us from that unholy alliance at the last election. His ultimate error was in trusting the intelligence of the football crowds, the tabloid fodder and even his own party members.

But in the end, the Tories reverted to the thing they can't avoid because it's in the DNA: fratricide. Just as they did for Maggie and almost every other top gun they ever had. I never voted for any other party than the Tories, and today, if I had to vote again, it would probably be for the Scots Nats if only because their agenda is perfectly clear. A possible disaster, but what's the difference?

I regret the fact that our youth has been denied a wonderful panorama of life choices just to forward the aims of a greedy bunch of egomaniacs in London. May they rot in hell and somebody entirely else gets elected next time round.

Rob, the shenanigans of the British political establishment over the years is not some vast plot focused entirely on robbing you of your pension.
Logged

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2016, 04:16:10 pm »

I have to admit, the "myths" list is amusing.

As an American, I find the listings of newspapers amusing, especially the last "...The Star: Breasts" . Murdoch-owned, I presume? Or did the UK start the page 6 (or whatever number) and export it to Down Under? The Guardian is really quite left for an American, I read it online.

I would not be pleased by Brexit were I a U.K. or E.U. scientist.

The topless model featured on Page three of the Murdoch owned Sun was discontinued last year, The Daily Star is now owned by a fellow called Richard Desmond who made his money publishing soft porn, well it would be considered soft nowadays.

I once knew a lass who posed regularly for the Star, one of the loveliest girls you could meet.
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Brexit
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2016, 04:19:39 pm »

I have to admit, the "myths" list is amusing.

As an American, I find the listings of newspapers amusing, especially the last "...The Star: Breasts" . Murdoch-owned, I presume? Or did the UK start the page 6 (or whatever number) and export it to Down Under? The Guardian is really quite left for an American, I read it online.

I would not be pleased by Brexit were I a U.K. or E.U. scientist.

Not quite: the Sun started the Page 3 concept which was rather good: it provided a wonderful training ground for the many young ladies who went on to grace my calendars, some fully clad. The Star tagged on later and milked it longer (no pun seriously intended).

I doubt very many UK people with any spark about them will be delighted either: what's to celebrate about closing possible career doors?

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18087
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Brexit
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2016, 04:21:23 pm »

Rob, the shenanigans of the British political establishment over the years is not some vast plot focused entirely on robbing you of your pension.

Oh, here we go again! It's been so far a fairly reasonable debate on general matters. Let's not let it slide into personal mudslinging, please.

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: Brexit
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2016, 04:53:54 pm »

All I can say about the Brexit vote itself is that "Little England" is indeed little. Very little.

How this all plays out once/if Article 50 is invoked…who knows? Maybe sanity prevails and it gets mostly papered over. Maybe the demagogues take over the Conservative party and do the scorched earth thing demagogues get off on doing. Maybe they all play "kick the can down the road" for awhile. I have friends in the sciences who are certainly worried about their jobs disappearing or at least moving to other EU countries.

Regardless, IMO once you open the xenophobic Pandora's Box you lose control and all the toxic stuff inside does what it was made to do.  :-\

If I were a Scot living in Scotland (rather than a half-Scot born & living in the US) I think I'd want a redo of that 2014 independence vote ASAP.

-Dave-
Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Brexit
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2016, 05:06:22 pm »

Looking at this from the US as well I see a very divided nation...

England and Wales versus Scotland and Northern Island (and Gibraltar), young versus old, London versus the rest of England, etc.

I really feel for the 18-24 year olds of which more than 70% voted to remain in the EU...

The fact that the result got applauded by Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen should also give some food for thought...
Logged

Chairman Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3352
    • flickr page
Re: Brexit
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2016, 05:17:32 pm »

That's cherry-picking, i.e., taking into account only things that are debunked. Where is the list of those that couldn't be debunked, which actually gave credence to the false ones in the first place?

Two things: Euromyths are by definition, not true & so subject to being debunked; things that are true, aren't Euromyths and so can't be debunked. Those myths should be properly labelled for what they really are - lies, made up by certain newspapers (yes Daily Hatemail & The Scum aka The Sun, I'm looking at you), to mislead their readers. As for those things that have come from the EU that are true, like health & safety regs, workers' rights, food standard regs, environmental protection regs etc., none of them are particularly problematic, and haven't caused much by way of upset.

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Brexit
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2016, 05:18:29 pm »

Looking at this from the US as well I see a very divided nation...

England and Wales versus Scotland and Northern Island (and Gibraltar), young versus old, London versus the rest of England, etc.

I really feel for the 18-24 year olds of which more than 70% voted to remain in the EU...

The fact that the result got applauded by Donald Trump and Marine Le Pen should also give some food for thought...

As someone pointed out elsewhere the older generation were the ones that were keen to enough to vote for entry into the EU when they were young and idealistic.
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Brexit
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2016, 05:25:13 pm »

Trouble is, about 30% or so of the nation didn't get off its ass to vote. That should be viewed as treason. Had every person with the right to vote voted, then that would be a clean that, but it isn't.

Britain is like most other nations: divided. But in its case it has more sections of possible divisions to offer, all with their own agendas and primal yearnings.

All that said, I still can't quite believe that they obeyed the wishes of a cynical, professional 'buffoon' who is anything but, and the wannabe 'English gentleman' who clearly isn't and never could be.

Papering over the cracks sounds like a good idea to me: everything always has been not a lot more than that - let's hope the paper's still tough enough.

pegelli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
    • http://pegelli.smugmug.com/
Re: Brexit
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2016, 05:27:17 pm »

Looking at this from the US as well I see a very divided nation...
I think that's an inherent attribute of many elections where there's only 2 choices. Looking from Europe I would say the same thing about many US presidential elections over the past decades. And I don't think the next one will be any different.
Logged
pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Brexit
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2016, 05:45:14 pm »

Two things: Euromyths are by definition, not true & so subject to being debunked; things that are true, aren't Euromyths and so can't be debunked. Those myths should be properly labelled for what they really are - lies, made up by certain newspapers (yes Daily Hatemail & The Scum aka The Sun, I'm looking at you), to mislead their readers. As for those things that have come from the EU that are true, like health & safety regs, workers' rights, food standard regs, environmental protection regs etc., none of them are particularly problematic, and haven't caused much by way of upset.


Absolutely right. And that's really been my point and problem with this situation all along: it, the campaigning to leave, has been based on a false agenda. Europe isn't a threat and I doubt the Brits see the indigenous Europeans as a threat. What they do see is the idea of invasions of non-European and proselytizing masses coming in via Europe as a real threat. Thing is, they're too late: the influx happened back in the late forties without any help from Europe, and there's no turning that back. It's a product of empire, weak decisions at its ending, and mirrored elsewhere in the world with the ending of slavery. If anyone thinks retribution doesn't come home to roost, that you don't end up paying for your sins, think again. Nobody has escaped their national dues.

Funny to think France is regularly held to ransom by unions, yet apparently only 8% of French people are in unions. Clever, that, to unionise the critical areas like public services and airlines. Yet they still get the numbers out on the streets!

Rob

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Brexit
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2016, 05:50:09 pm »

I think that's an inherent attribute of many elections where there's only 2 choices. Looking from Europe I would say the same thing about many US presidential elections over the past decades. And I don't think the next one will be any different.

Clearly, if only mathematically!

Trouble is, where there are too many choices you get coalitions and they are always inherently weak and incapable of achieving anything. It plagued Italy for decades. Looks like it's about to ruin Spain now, too.

muntanela

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 687
    • BRATA
Re: Brexit
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2016, 05:52:47 pm »


All that said, I still can't quite believe that they obeyed the wishes of a cynical, professional 'buffoon' who is anything but, and the wannabe 'English gentleman' who clearly isn't and never could be.



 Boris Johnson prime minister of UK and Donald Trump president of USA...
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18087
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Brexit
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2016, 05:59:24 pm »

Two things: Euromyths are by definition, not true & so subject to being debunked; things that are true, aren't Euromyths and so can't be debunked...

Bill, you are playing semantics here and constructing straw men arguments (i.e., listing positive things that are not under dispute).

At some point I was teaching economics at a European University and remember a number of ridiculous bureaucratic requirements for, say, cucumber shape and size. My sources were not UK tabloids, but academic research papers, by the way.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 57   Go Up