Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!

[Theodoros]

Hi,

My take is a bit that Hy6 was dead when Jenoptic pulled out.

You missed some chapters posted before Erik... No Jenoptik ever pulled out... It was banned from mod.2 from Leaf (which was their customer but was bought by P1 and "forgot" the relationship...)   

But, the reason that the Hy6 got attention  was really that Hasselblad has closed the H-platform.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, ...and then the frog was revealed to be a prince, he got married to the princess and they all lived happily ever after... 

[synn]

Phase One is a mean company? And Hasselblad (or Rollei in the day) is ... a nice company? Um hmm. Right. They're all (except for Phase One, of course) so nice, they just want everyone to get along. I guess some have forgotten that these companies are ultimately in business to make a profit. And any smart company will be focused on doing exactly that. A company that makes great products isn't much good to anyone if they aren't open for business.

As far as Leaf mod.2 support of Sinarbacks, perhaps it was decided that it was best to support - in the technical sense - only Leaf digital backs on Leaf AFi products? And let Sinar handle their support of Sinarbacks on Sinar Hy6 or Rollei Hy6 cameras?



So, everyone lost a platform (Contax), including Phase One. Let's say it for what it was.

You're right, Phase One could have supported Rollei, after all, they already had, with P20/P45 models. I mean, according to you, they had an invitation, right? Probably a nice little card in an envelope was sent from Rollei with some words to the effect of - "We'd love you to join our wonderful platform, save the date!".

One thing I always try to keep in mind on this (and any) forum, and that is writing in a forum is not easy, and presenting an argument the same way that you would face to face is not easy. I never assume that posters don't know what they're talking about, in fact I notice that most indeed have a good deal of knowledge and information on topics. But Theo - in your case, regardless of what you know or what you think you know, what distorts and devalues any of that is your extremely biased presentation on the topic.

The H2F was an open platform camera? I seem to recall some of my Phase One clients who were using Hasselblad cameras were so pissed off that they could no longer buy a nw Hasselblad camera for their Phase One digital back, they renamed the H2F the H2FU. You're painting this picture that Phase One is - uniquely - some sort of conspiratorial, under-handed camera company assassin that ruthlessly plots to put others out of business by not accepting their free invitations and canceling platform support willy nilly. Do you really think that in any of the circumstances that you raise, money/costs are not a factor or point of contention?

I know - first hand - for a fact, that Phase One considered being involved in the Rollei situation at the time, as well as after the dust had settled. They looked at the situation, looked hard at the situation, and made what seemed to them the smarter business decision. It is quite possible that hitching their wagon to Rollei may have threatened Phase One's existence, the same way it impacted Leaf. There is the notion that with Phase One behind the Rollei platform, the day would have been saved. That is a Theory. It is not a fact.

Whether you like the older Mamiya cameras, or whether or not you like the new XF platform, the fact is Phase One made a business decision, and their business decision has enabled them to stay open for business, and continue to produce innovative digital capture solutions for photographers (sorry if that sounds a bit like a commercial, but it's a fact).

It is my strong belief that companies make decisions for very valid reasons, I've actually witnessed quite a few very hard, complex discussions concerning big question decisions, and I've never seen anything resembling the simplistic motivations that you, Theo have attributed to Phase One. To assume one knows everything that went into that decision and castigate them for not making the decision you wanted, but to also apply a coat of viciousness as the motivation behind the decision is, I don't know how else to say it, Theo, it is BS.


Steve Hendrix/CI

This is one of the greatest BS slaying posts of all time.
Kudos.

[Theodoros]

This guy has 1150 posts and has said nothing in 1200 of them... Surely a world record,  If I may propose, stick with Bob at Get Dpi friend... you make a good team there, Dpr would even be a progress!

EDIT: Let me explain how it works here:
1. You read the O/P and see if you know anything on the subject...
2. You judge if the subject interests you as to improve your knowledge on the matter, or if you have some knowledge that can contribute to the knowledge of others...
3. You read the conversation and notice the fundamentals presented as to support the conversation
4. You notice how many views the subject has before you "open your mouth" unless you want to ridicule yourself...
5. Make sure you post something worthwhile for others to read and buck it up with facts... If you do, you are respected from others... if you don't, you become known for the opposite reasons... (more related to a circus figure)     

See? ...its simple!   

[yaya]

Yes, but Joe did not cast aspersions as to the motivations of either parties. And Rollei's "second mistake" he mentions is extremely notable.

The rest of your analysis of the situation ignores or at least extremely underestimates the true cost and complexity of supporting a platform, the notion of actual short and long term product development (and the substantial amount of cost and focus involved), and isolates the matter as the benefit of adding at least a few digital back sales - the true picture is generally much larger and more complex.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Steve,

I see this thread as yet another attempt to stir the soup that very few are wishing or willing to taste...
I had my finger on the "Post" button a couple of times and on both occasions chose to ditch it.
There are so many factual errors and ilinformed assumptions in the OP's posts that it is, to put simply, not worth our while or our ink.
Given enough time, it will slide down the page and will eventually disappear from our view.

BR
Yair

[Theodoros]

Steve,

There are so many factual errors and ilinformed assumptions in the OP's posts that it is, to put simply, not worth our while or our ink.
Given enough time, it will slide down the page and will eventually disappear from our view.

BR
Yair

Hi Yair, can you please mention ONE out of "the many" ill-information you've noticed?  Make it one that worths your ink...

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Theodoros,

You have something like 2079 postings your self, and almost all of those make zero sense. Please consider that before complaining at other posters postings…

Best regards
Erik

This guy has 1150 posts and has said nothing in 1200 of them... Surely a world record,  If I may propose, stick with Bob at Get Dpi friend... you make a good team there, Dpr would even be a progress!

EDIT: Let me explain how it works here:
1. You read the O/P and see if you know anything on the subject...
2. You judge if the subject interests you as to improve your knowledge on the matter, or if you have some knowledge that can contribute to the knowledge of others...
3. You read the conversation and notice the fundamentals presented as to support the conversation
4. You notice how many views the subject has before you "open your mouth" unless you want to ridicule yourself...
5. Make sure you post something worthwhile for others to read and buck it up with facts... If you do, you are respected from others... if you don't, you become known for the opposite reasons... (more related to a circus figure)     

See? ...its simple!   

[Theodoros]

Hi Theodoros,

You have something like 2079 postings your self, and almost all of those make zero sense. Please consider that before complaining at other posters postings…

Best regards
Erik

True... I rarely post feathers, comment on cameras and technology I know nothing about, or suggest to Leica engineers what pixel size they should use and many others that require 10000 posts of "Einstein" knowledge... 

So... how would a 6008 do with multishot backs Erik?

[synn]

Theo, there is no nicer way to put this so I will give it to you straight.

No one likes you here. No one will miss you if you were gone. You talk as if you are the last word in photography, but you have not posted a single photo that you have taken. You don't have a portfolio that anyone could find and your factually terrible posts which reek of fanboy vitriol against the brands you like and misguided optimism for the ones you like make everyone shake their head in shame. The only reason why people bother to respond to you is to make sure that if some poor soul finds your threads on google at some point, the BS you spread does not misinform them.

P.s. I am well at home at getDPI as I am here. My body of work is easy to find there as it is here. I like posting there because the artist to idiot ratio there is much more in favor of the former. I see how you'd resent it though, considering they have repeatedly refused to buy what trolls like you and yunli song have been selling.

Good day.

[Theodoros]

I still don't see why you are participating in this conversation... have you any knowledge on the subject or is it that you post to provoke people like you ALWAYS do?

Is it a special "mission" for you to "jump" everywhere and post all irrelevant you do? Don't you have some self respect?

[EricWHiss]

So much speculation, over all the years... the guesses and stories never stop.   I know what happened.  I've seen the contracts. I've read the notes.  I've been there at the factory.  I've talked to the people. You want to write a novel or a soap opera - all the pieces are there.

BUT ....The only important thing is that it's a great camera with great lenses and fantastic ergonomics.  I still prefer it to the other offerings including the XF. 

[Rob C]

Irony must be the flavour of this thread: we have so much angst, anger and pontification, but there seem to be two people available to LuLa who could make relevant comment, and neither chooses so to do.

The surprising thing, the irony referred to above apart, is that anyone not already a pro with the work type required to justify that sort of expenditure, would choose to be in the MFD system - of any brand. Yes, it would make me wince, but I could go out and write the non-bouncing cheque, but as a guy who did also own and sometimes need film MF, my life as a retired photographer would not be one iota the better for that purchase, now, as an amateur. I'd rather help feed the starving or give money to a hospital charity than blow it on an ego trip like that. Insofar as the photography goes, format doesn't give you talent; Leica doesn't give you talent, my Rollei TLR didn't, Nikon didn't and neither did Hasselblad. (I can't speak for Canon - never been there.) They are all just tools - some more suited to some jobs than others. Anyone buying into MFD thinking it'll make them better photographers is insane. It may allow them to produce the same old same old, just bigger.

Rob C

[Theodoros]

Irony must be the flavour of this thread: we have so much angst, anger and pontification, but there seem to be two people available to LuLa who could make relevant comment, and neither chooses so to do.

The surprising thing, the irony referred to above apart, is that anyone not already a pro with the work type required to justify that sort of expenditure, would choose to be in the MFD system - of any brand. Yes, it would make me wince, but I could go out and write the non-bouncing cheque, but as a guy who did also own and sometimes need film MF, my life as a retired photographer would not be one iota the better for that purchase, now, as an amateur. I'd rather help feed the starving or give money to a hospital charity than blow it on an ego trip like that. Insofar as the photography goes, format doesn't give you talent; Leica doesn't give you talent, my Rollei TLR didn't, Nikon didn't and neither did Hasselblad. (I can't speak for Canon - never been there.) They are all just tools - some more suited to some jobs than others. Anyone buying into MFD thinking it'll make them better photographers is insane. It may allow them to produce the same old same old, just bigger.

Rob C

Rob I never was and never will be a gear head... As you correctly say, gear is just tools and my approach is only from that perspective... I changed my Bronica ETRSi system (which I had for twenty years) some 12 years ago for the Contax 645 system only because the compatibility of the Bronica with digital was extremely limited and then I also changed my Sinar P2 for the Fuji GX-680 only because I needed a series of new lenses and electronic shutters to turn the Sinar into digital so that I could do multishot with it...

However, one can't help to notice that there are tools of limited use and other tools that are twice and three times as capable as others (modern ones)... and the Rollei 6xxx is more capable than any other I've come across and because of that it is cheaper too...

I (and everybody else) can obviously do with the Contax all tasks that an XF can do and additionally shoot multishot with it and use film, but if the Rollei would have been my choice instead of the Contax some 12 years ago, I would additionally have high sync and (most important) use the same lenses on the P2 with the same MFDBs and never need a new series of lenses and shutters as to make it compatible with my multishot MFDBs...

I have to admit I didn't have a good look at the Rollei system some 12 years ago otherwise I might have invested on that instead of the Contax, but its never too late and I'm thankful I realized that the addition of a tool like the Rollei platform can only save space and money, yet improving further (in reality maximize) the quality of my work... so from that POV it makes a (much) better tool....

[Rob C]

'Twas ever thus.

That said, if anyone has an interest or desire to buy into nice cameras, cars, boats, watches...then jolly good luck to them.

My check-list:

Cameras, cars, boats are all the same proposition if you don't need them. If you buy them for fun, fine, but if you buy them out of obsession, with expectations of being better at something than you are without them, then not fun.

Watches. Unlike the current electronic toys above (and today that includes the boats, too), if you buy well, they have a lifetime longer than the buyer's. And strangely, values increases. So yes, they actually can be considered - justifiably - as investments with pleasure attached and as part of, I guess, heritable goodies.

Of course, you could be killed on the street for any one of them.

;-)

Rob

[Theodoros]

So much speculation, over all the years... the guesses and stories never stop.   I know what happened.  I've seen the contracts. I've read the notes.  I've been there at the factory.  I've talked to the people. You want to write a novel or a soap opera - all the pieces are there.

BUT ....The only important thing is that it's a great camera with great lenses and fantastic ergonomics.  I still prefer it to the other offerings including the XF.

Well, XF can't do multishot, or use film, or has lenses with image circles enough as to be useful on a view camera does it? So it is restricted as to cope with tasks that DSLRs also do... Then with the Rollei platform one can have an external electronic control as to have his (very same) lenses fully functional on a tech camera for both aperture and electronic shutter and even use the same MFDBs of the platform on the view camera with the same interface communication... Thus it's obvious it can cope with far more tasks than any other platform can...

I guess all the above makes the ideal tool... it even gives a (real) meaning to the word "tool"...

It thus makes no surprise  to me that the (usual) "posters" of all nonsense "subjects" about pixel peeping and "comparisons" on sensors do all to their power to diverge a conversation that concerns a real tool which is irreplaceable for capabilities even today....

[Theodoros]

Hopefully those here who aren't earning their living with their cameras buy for leisure, pleasure and fun and it would be a tad disingenuous of me to suggest otherwise.

It doesn't give them the right to suggest that what they are doing (not very well IMO) is the ONLY kind of photography that should be important to pros though...

Changing the subject completely...

The personal attacks seen on this and other threads are enough to make this contributor question what it is he's doing here.

It may be that personal attacks are motivated from the side of the industry that its existence depends on the consumption of equipment for amateur use... This kind of equipment always seeks for creating an "army" of "fanboys"...  ("fanboys" is used as to be polite...)  The kind of people that think of some (incapable) equipment to be as ...Ferrari and real pro equipment to be as ...KIA    The same kind of trolls that thinks of incapable equipment as being relevant to ..."tools"! 

[synn]

The personal attacks seen on this and other threads are enough to make this contributor question what it is he's doing here.

As we have seen for many months now, the last thing the moderators unfortunately seem to be interested in is to actually moderate the forum. Even when the offending posts and posters have been reported.

[Theodoros]

As we have seen for many months now, the last thing the moderators unfortunately seem to be interested in is to actually moderate the forum. Even when the offending posts and posters have been reported.

Do you want Lula moderators to band subjects on equipment that you can't talk about or equipment that does more photography related subjects than your "Ferrari" does?

[ynp]

I still have my 6008AF with two film magazines and a Phaseone db20. I cannot part with the Schneider 55 mm tilt and shift PCS Super Angulon.  In my totally unprofessional view of a person who doesn't sell the images, this lens alone is the reason to keep the Rollei. Obviously, it's no Ferrari, is is a forklift. A tool, to use when you have no time nor desire to carry your view camera for a tabletop.

Many years ago I asked a Sinar representative if I could adapt my Rollei lenses to my Sinar P3 and she hinted that there would be a solution. Then the ill fated Hy6 was introduced and those who are living long enough remember the story. No real solution to use the fantastic line of lenses on anything modern and supported.

If the Rollei lenses can be adapted to a modern system I will be ready to buy the solution.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[EricWHiss]

There has been a way to operate your Rollei lenses on technical cameras like the Sinar P3 - you can operate the lenses with the lens adapter and the Lens Control S.  You just mount the lens adapter to the lens board for your system. If you want to look into this, I have a couple of the lens adapters and lens control S units still available (used).

 Arca Swiss and others have had this available.  Alpa makes a very well integrated Rollei lens adapter for their FPS system that even allows step control of the autofocus lenses.    I know others are working on adapters too.

[ynp]

There has been a way to operate your Rollei lenses on technical cameras like the Sinar P3 - you can operate the lenses with the lens adapter and the Lens Control S.  You just mount the lens adapter to the lens board for your system. If you want to look into this, I have a couple of the lens adapters and lens control S units still available (used).

 Arca Swiss and others have had this available.  Alpa makes a very well integrated Rollei lens adapter for their FPS system that even allows step control of the autofocus lenses.    I know others are working on adapters too.

Thank you very much for your kind offer.

Can I use my Sinarback 54H in Multishot mode with the Lens Control S? Last time I looked my 54H was not supported and Sinar offered an upgrade to eVolution 75 in order to make it work on the 6008 AF.

Thanks,
Yevgeny