Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!  (Read 12613 times)

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« on: June 14, 2016, 09:25:34 pm »

Which simply meant... that one couldn't use the new lenses on his older (6xxx series) camera! ...and more than that, they changed the digital back mount! (which meant that one couldn't share an MFDB between his previous and next camera)...

CONCLUSION: It takes only a couple of (marketing) foolish decisions to destroy the most brilliant pro system ever...

No camera system ever had this kind of potential... Rollei offered a complete series of lenses, a fully modular camera and a modern view camera that one could share his backs (film or digital) and additionally keep the same line of lenses and use on it! And then, they even added a shutter system and control so that one could use the very same interface if he wanted to use dedicated lenses on the view camera! But then... the HY-6 came and changed it all! The lenses where not back compatible to the existing systems anymore! 

Who ever thought of that "brilliant" idea? ...AF was there, electronic aperture control was there, what was the need for the AF-D series of lenses? ...what they where thinking of? 

OTOH, It reminds of some recent marketing decisions of some modern makers, doesn't it? (making the camera incompatible with the existing base of backs)  :o  :'(
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2016, 01:45:15 am »

Isn't this like ten years ago?

Besides, you're not supposed to sit on old gear forever, but upgrade upgrade upgrade! The small medium format companies are dependent on that their users buy their new gear, so making old stuff incompatible or at least cumbersome to use can be a good thing.
Logged

synn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1235
    • My fine art portfolio
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2016, 06:52:36 am »

I would think that Rollei's "fatal mistake" was to not manage themselves properly and going out of business.
Logged
my portfolio: www.sandeepmurali.com

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2016, 08:12:16 am »

Isn't this like ten years ago?

Obviously... but it's one of the systems that still has fanatic users due to some reasons, here are some:

1. Camera bodies are completely modular with interchangeable finders, backs, screens and (off course) ability to use film or digital.
2. Lenses are both of superb image quality, but of second to none build quality too,
3. First camera that ever used high leaf shutter sync (higher than 1/500).
4. The most "quite" camera ever when used with mirror lock...  ideal to use for multishot captures, 16x is a piece of cake with it.
5. A "ton" of lenses offered, fastest lenses available than any other system (equals the non leaf shutter Contax on this)
6. 6X6 image area and lens quality make the lenses ideal to use on a view camera... especially with 33x44 & 36/37x48/49 backs...
7. Mounting distance makes lenses much more friendly to use with modern backs and sensors with microlenses...

..and many more. All & all a system that is the most capable for pro use even if compared with any of the modern offerings, it lucks nothing - offers much that modern systems luck.


Besides, you're not supposed to sit on old gear forever, but upgrade upgrade upgrade!
 

I suppose this is sarcastic... quite right too if it is... Some people blame their older gear for their disappointing results and think of "upgrade" to blame...


The small medium format companies are dependent on that their users buy their new gear, so making old stuff incompatible or at least cumbersome to use can be a good thing.


It seems so... That's what I call "marketing golden boys of crap"... The truth is that making stuff incompatible is the same as tearing your own eyes off... It disappoints older users to the degree that if they are to "change system" internally, they may as well change boat to another maker... It happened with Hasselblad with the H3 introduction that was the start of the decent and brought the company facing  bankruptcy, it continued with Hasselblad when they stopped the CF series of backs, it happened with Rollei and the complains on the P1 XF incompatibility out of older users are more than obvious all over the web...

Keeping compatibility is crucial when a pro invests on a system, it has being proven by Hasselblad V history and is proven again with the H4X & even more with the H5X (although Hassy has to re-introduce the CF series of backs and offer the ability for one to buy the complete camera offerings with an H-X body as an alternative)...

If the aim of Rollei was to "force" 6008AF users as to change to HY-6 instead, what they should consider first should be "why one would do so"? What is that he would gain for loosing money? ...is there anything? If OTOH the aim was to attract new comers to the Rollei system with the HY-6, what was going to be the back-up camera? Another H/Y-6?

If the H/Y-6 have kept the lens interface of the AF lenses and if a new adapter for the older MFDBs  (of imacon/Hassselblad CF & Sinarbacks) was offered with the camera so that older backs where made compatible, I bet you anything that Rollei would still be among us and running strong. 
There could even be an H6Y-45 (645) with focal plane shutter and "dummy" adapter for the lenses as to transfer the interface by now and a new X-act3 that would be compatible with mirrorless cameras, all compatible with the existing series of lenses and backs that would have created an ultra wide existing base of customers in the market... The wider the marketing base, the most successful the maker... (Unwritten) rule number one with marketing.



Logged

Gigi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 548
    • some work
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2016, 10:14:47 am »

Well...some of this is true at least. But not the full story. 

It's true there isn't backwards compatibility if the Hy6 back to the older bodies. And that the newest AF lenses (without aperture ring) didn't go backwards (maybe to the last 6008, not sure).

But the opposite is also true: all the PQ lenses, manual or AF, are forwardly compatible, and are a real pleasure to use on the 6008 and the Hy6. I've got a number of the manual ones bought in the 1990s and they not only work brilliantly with the very accurate focus confirmation on the Hy6, but they hold their own against current view camera lenses in image quality. So too the AF lenses - although like you, I don't care for the AFD withou aperture rings.

Seen another way - if you are willing to parse through the complexities and nuances of the system, and deal with the size/weight, you can assemble a very capable system with lenses for not so much money. Yes you are bit locked out of the newest backs, but the Leaf AFI or Credo (if one can find that) are pretty darn nice. The Leaf AFI back came with a rotating sensor, very nice as well.
Logged
Geoff

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2016, 12:36:10 pm »

Hi,

My understanding is that the HY6 was developed for Jenoptik who needed a camera to put their digital backs on. Jenoptic was joined by Leaf and Sinar, while Hasselblad has closed down the H-system and Phase One bought into Mamiya. When Jenoptic pulled out, the operation (at that stage called Franke & Heidecke) filed for bankruptcy. Some assets were acquired by DHW and production restarted. DHW went insolvent in 2014 and was dissolved 2015-04-01.

The major mistake Rollei and later DHW made was probably to produce for a market that was to small to be profitable. Contrary to Phase One and Hasselblad Rollei/DHW did not have their own digital back and it is probably the backs that make good money.

It is quite interesting technical camera vendors can survive in their even smaller markets.

Best regards
Erik


I would think that Rollei's "fatal mistake" was to not manage themselves properly and going out of business.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2016, 12:39:13 pm »

Well...some of this is true at least. But not the full story. 

It's true there isn't backwards compatibility if the Hy6 back to the older bodies. And that the newest AF lenses (without aperture ring) didn't go backwards (maybe to the last 6008, not sure).

But the opposite is also true: all the PQ lenses, manual or AF, are forwardly compatible, and are a real pleasure to use on the 6008 and the Hy6. I've got a number of the manual ones bought in the 1990s and they not only work brilliantly with the very accurate focus confirmation on the Hy6, but they hold their own against current view camera lenses in image quality. So too the AF lenses - although like you, I don't care for the AFD withou aperture rings.

Seen another way - if you are willing to parse through the complexities and nuances of the system, and deal with the size/weight, you can assemble a very capable system with lenses for not so much money. Yes you are bit locked out of the newest backs, but the Leaf AFI or Credo (if one can find that) are pretty darn nice. The Leaf AFI back came with a rotating sensor, very nice as well.

There is no argument that the system is superbly thought out Geoff... that's why I recently invested on it (on the 6008 platform) despite it being "dead", simply because it gives solutions that no other (modern) system can...

But please explain to me... why did they introduced the AFD series of lenses at all? What is the point behind that "bright" idea since the AF series of lenses is (as you say) fully compatible with the HY-6 and exactly the same optically??!   :o  :-\  :'(   Who was the "Einstein" that came with the idea of INVENTING a way to "cripple" the system's appeal? 

P.S. The AF-D lenses are NOT compatible with the 6008 AF, they mount on it, but there is no way one may set the aperture.... The AF lenses are fully compatible with the HY-6 and function the same as the AF-D series... but one couldn't buy one new with the HY-6 (because they where discontinued and replaced by the AF-D series of which the aperture can't be controlled on other than the HY-6)... How stupid!  :P  ..."brilliantly" thought eeehh?   :o  "Pure Einstein" logic !  ;D
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2016, 12:39:53 pm »

Funny thing; with film, the makers sold many cameras for many years, and any changes were usually tiny, such as a slightly higher flash synch. for example. Now and again they'd introduce a new lens or version of an old one; life went on perfectly pleasantly for the buyers as it did for the camera companies.

You wanted a new camera? You simply traded in and got a perfectly reasonable offer that made it fairly easy and painless to buy the new one, and the second-hand market allowed the less-willing-to-spend person the chance of getting something good - usually with a guarantee - that would take that buyer to a new level.

Then the circle got greedy, and as always happens in such cases, a race began that is ending with attrition and demise. Just think stock.

Rob

siddhaarta

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 130
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2016, 02:43:52 pm »

I would say, the AFD lenses are partially compatible with the 6008 AF and the 6008 Integral 2. They work in auto aperture only.

Why they created the AFD line, who the hell knows … a pity the AF line is difficult to get on ebay nowadays.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Rollei's mistakes and external problems
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2016, 03:03:38 pm »

I can think of multiple factors that contributed to the Rollei system's demise, and I would not try to pin all the blame on any single one of them.  A couple to add to those already mentioned:
  • Denmark conquered the digital back world. The digital back market came to be dominated by two companies, Phase One and Imacon, the latter then merged into Hasselblad, and it was hard for the Rollei system and its successors to compete without the profits from back sales, and without the ability to develop "integrated" systems of backs and bodies.
  • Rollei's decided when it made the transition to autofocus back in the late film era to stay with bodies and lenses designed for the 6x6 (54x54mm) film frame. Whatever the virtues of that format when film or sensors are available for it, this turned out to fit poorly with the sensor sizes available, because they have stubbornly stayed within the "645" frame, hampering some aspects of the Rollei lens system.
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2016, 03:06:54 pm »

   ….a pity the AF line is difficult to get on ebay nowadays.


Its obviously because those who have them, are not prepared to apart them... Same with the 6008AF body which is the only pricey one...

Perhaps Rollei's decision to only convert the few AF lenses to AFD instead of retaining the AF series and add some more AFD, was as "bright" ( ;D) as the decision to introduce the AF-D series at all....
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Rollei's mistakes and external problems
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2016, 03:42:33 pm »

I can think of multiple factors that contributed to the Rollei system's demise, and I would not try to pin all the blame on any single one of them.  A couple to add to those already mentioned:
  • Denmark conquered the digital back world. The digital back market came to be dominated by two companies, Phase One and Imacon, the latter then merged into Hasselblad, and it was hard for the Rollei system and its successors to compete without the profits from back sales, and without the ability to develop "integrated" systems of backs and bodies.
  • Rollei's decided when it made the transition to autofocus back in the late film era to stay with bodies and lenses designed for the 6x6 (54x54mm) film frame. Whatever the virtues of that format when film or sensors are available for it, this turned out to fit poorly with the sensor sizes available, because they have stubbornly stayed within the "645" frame, hampering some aspects of the Rollei lens system.

Quite correct... P1's refusal to support the system (obviously because their own was much inferior) was another key factor and then Hasselblad decided to stop the CF backs altogether (tearing their own eyes off and letting P1 "alone" in the market to play the "no competition winner")... This all added to affect negatively further on Rollei's marketing position...

But then, there where more stupid decisions made... They got Leaf to supply backs for the system, but only for the HY6... and then Sinar (who also joined the platform) stopped making adapters for the 6008 altogether (which was the same stupid marketing as everything else mentioned before as it both cut additional sales of Sinarbacks, but denied support to the base of Rollei customers too - thus forcing them to abandon the platform).... All and all it all comes down to one Question... "what the YH-6 had to offer over the existing 6008AF?" ...nothing at all! ...only damage!

If (as you correctly bring it up) the "new" camera was of 645 format and 6008 would continue to develop in parallel to it by providing "links" to the new platform via adapters for backs and lenses, its difficult to see how competition could have reacted on a system that would be "miles ahead" for both quality and providing solutions... Let's not forget that competition hasn't "catch up" even today... which is more than a decade without the 6008... 
Logged

Gigi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 548
    • some work
Re: Rollei's mistakes and external problems
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2016, 06:08:33 pm »

Quite correct... P1's refusal to support the system (obviously because their own was much inferior) was another key factor and then Hasselblad decided to stop the CF backs altogether (tearing their own eyes off and letting P1 "alone" in the market to play the "no competition winner")... This all added to affect negatively further on Rollei's marketing position...

But then, there where more stupid decisions made... They got Leaf to supply backs for the system, but only for the HY6... and then Sinar (who also joined the platform) stopped making adapters for the 6008 altogether (which was the same stupid marketing as everything else mentioned before as it both cut additional sales of Sinarbacks, but denied support to the base of Rollei customers too - thus forcing them to abandon the platform).... All and all it all comes down to one Question... "what the YH-6 had to offer over the existing 6008AF?" ...nothing at all! ...only damage!

If (as you correctly bring it up) the "new" camera was of 645 format and 6008 would continue to develop in parallel to it by providing "links" to the new platform via adapters for backs and lenses, its difficult to see how competition could have reacted on a system that would be "miles ahead" for both quality and providing solutions... Let's not forget that competition hasn't "catch up" even today... which is more than a decade without the 6008...

Its funny looking back on this all with the benefit of hindsight. A bit of personal history:
- brought into the Rollei system with 6003 c. 1992, when they had a great intro body/lens package price. Bought a few lenses over the next 8 years.
- got into the 6008 with the Phase P20 back. Worked well enough but was a bit funky for handholding. Big pixels, but low ISO.
- got into the Hy6 c. 2011, with AFI II 7 Demo back.

The funniest part of all this was that the AFI back was from Europe, a demo, and if not sold to me was going back to Kodak (who had bought Leaf) even though it had a non-Kodak sensor. It was clear they were going to stick it in the back closet. They offered the dealer a low value for the demo, which he was happy enough if it was matched -so it was a steal at the time. Still going strong.

The AFD lenses seemed like a decent idea at the time to them.... I wonder (honestly) they were trying to save money by simplifying the lens barrel - a not-so-bright decision in hindsight (I never liked it anyway). Are the AF and the AFD lenses identical? Supposedly not, but not sure either way. I've the 50 and 80 AF lenses and they are fine.

The change from the 6008 to the Hy6 did make some sense. The 6008 was long in the tooth, and the y6 had some cool upgrades. Didn't have the removable handle of the 6008, sadly, as the Hy6 is a bear to travel with, but it has a really cool integrated read-out on the handle with the histogram and lots of other info. Also the mirror dampening on the Hy6 is much better than the 6008, allowing another stop of hand-foldability. Focus adjustment on the Hy6 allows you to dial in your lenses. This makes a huge difference, with a  150 telexenar going from "soft" to "sharp as a tack" using the adjustment.

As to the origins, Erik K. is on the track, but the story is complicated. Jenoptik was involved in the design, but I think they were a subcontractor to F&H, the successor to Rollei. Rollei, F&H, and DHW are all essentially the same players, in the same plant, although with a continuing loss of leadership over the decades. When Mandelmann owned Rollei in the 1990s, he commissioned the Schneider lenses, which are one of the finest sets of lenses (as a group), still. The evolution of that set over the 1990s is a fascinating story in itself, as they explored what Zeiss did and did not offer in their Rollei mounts, and both went head-to-head with Zeiss (40, 50, 60, 80, 150), and also introduced lenses that Zeiss did not have - the 55PC, 90 macro, 150 Apo, 300.

There are many stories about the demise of Rollei/F&H/DHW - I heard one from inside the company about how Rollei was profitable, but had been saddled with debt for other reasons and thrown into bankruptcy. The recent demise of DHW is another matter, as it was a shell of what the company was, with only a couple dozen employees. Yet even that company could have been made to work. The marketing was... abysmal to say the least, and the confusion over Rollei/DHW/Leaf/Sinar staggering.

One story about the Hy6 was that F&H was acting as the umbrella developer, Jenoptik did the work, and the deal was designed around an open platform with Phase, Leaf, and Sinar all signing on. As we know, Phase refused (sadly, for reasons we don't know), and then Leaf and Sinar and Rollei divided up the world market by a complex division of distribution, which caused the confusion and the kiss of death.

And yet... at the end of the day,  (five years later) the numbers to make DHW profitable recently were not inconceivable. There were some management issues to be resolved but these did not come to pass. So now, there is a small residual company now from those ashes, who does a bit of repair and maybe a bit of sales.

One other note - in the file of "bright ideas", DHW spent real development money pursuing making a 35mm lens for the Hy6. The money should have gone into manuf/marketing, not designing and trying to make an expensive specialty lens for limited market. All in all a few silly moves can drag any company down.

Timing in these things is key. Rollei spent good money in the early 1990s on digital backs, and was way ahead of their competitors. Their macro options from that time are staggering. But it was all for naught, as they were too early and all that money was lost. That might well be the root of the whole problem, and what we are seeing 25 years later are the final spin-offs of that loss of capital. Same thing almost happened to Hassy too. Remember Leica and the DMR? The early years were brutal.
 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 06:16:56 pm by Gigi »
Logged
Geoff

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2016, 06:57:03 pm »


Much the same story as I've been told... Of course the progress on some mechanical developments on the HY-6 could have all been applied to a 6010 too... To me, the real surprise is that when people realized that they goofed with the AF-D lenses, why they didn't went back to the AF series... This is a real mystery!  One sees an important issue  and although he spots it, he insists on it!

By the way... (only to add to the story) the x-act2 has been developed, designed and made by Linhoff....
Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Rollei's mistakes and external problems
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2016, 07:42:47 pm »

One other note - in the file of "bright ideas", DHW spent real development money pursuing making a 35mm lens for the Hy6. The money should have gone into manuf/marketing, not designing and trying to make an expensive specialty lens for limited market. All in all a few silly moves can drag any company down.

Except for the 30mm fisheye the widest lens was the 40mm which first of all was the not the greatest Rollei lens and bit underwhelming compared to the wide angle options of the competition.

IMHO it made sense that they tried to address that.  I wouldn't call a 35mm lens a specialty lens...

Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2016, 07:47:05 pm »

I would think that Rollei's "fatal mistake" was to not manage themselves properly and going out of business.

A company that is unable to market itself goes broke... It is a simple as that.
Logged

siddhaarta

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 130
Re: Rollei's mistakes and external problems
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2016, 07:47:21 pm »

When Mandelmann owned Rollei in the 1990s, he commissioned the Schneider lenses, which are one of the finest sets of lenses (as a group), still. The evolution of that set over the 1990s is a fascinating story in itself, as they explored what Zeiss did and did not offer in their Rollei mounts, and both went head-to-head with Zeiss (40, 50, 60, 80, 150), and also introduced lenses that Zeiss did not have - the 55PC, 90 macro, 150 Apo, 300.


See here the interesting comparison of MTFs: http://www.rolleiflexpages.com/lenscharts.html
Logged

Gigi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 548
    • some work
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2016, 08:32:42 pm »

MTFs are delightful but  difficult - Isn't there something different about these charts - that one group takes the lines at 5, 10 and 20, another at 10, 20, 40? Not sure of this at all tho...
Logged
Geoff

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2016, 12:57:20 am »

Hi,

I would be pretty sure all are at 10/20/40 lp/mm. That used to be like an German industry standard.

Best regards
Erik


MTFs are delightful but  difficult - Isn't there something different about these charts - that one group takes the lines at 5, 10 and 20, another at 10, 20, 40? Not sure of this at all tho...
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Rollei's fatal mistake! They abandoned the aperture ring!
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2016, 08:57:59 am »

I don't believe that quality of lenses would ever be an issue for one to choose among the top quality MF platforms (I would agree with Michael on this) I believe that all Hassy V & H, Contax 645, M645, Rollei, Leica and all other modern, have great lenses and then some lenses in their line that really shine out. After all, one would (naturally) expect the line's Image quality to have developed further with time if the line was in production.

With Rollei however, one can't help to mention a few facts that the rest of the makers are missing:
1. The line offers the fastest lenses among all other leaf shutter lens makers (80/2, 50/2.8, 110/2, 180/2.8 ) and exactly at the focal lengths one would probably need a fast lens at some time.
2. All lenses are at least of 80mm image circle which makes them usable on a view camera, especially with sensors of up to 37x49 in size.
3. There are special lenses (like the 90/4 & 150/4.6 apo symmars) that other than their extreme image quality, they are of even wider image circle (120mm diameter for the 150/4.6) that are ideal to use with a view camera
4. The lenses own shutter and aperture are fully compatible with the Rollei control S shutter system as if there was a dedicated tech camera lens and electronic shutter added, but without the need of an electronic shutter at all.
5. The lens long mounting distance makes them friendly with even MFDBS that have smaller pixel and microlenses (like the modern Cmos ones) when used on a tech camera.

As a result, a  complete system built around the system with camera platform, lenses and view camera, would require the minimum of lenses (4-5 the most) without the need of an additional series for the view camera, only a tech camera body to add and then common MFDB for one to share between the two. Additionally, the camera can lock its mirror up for the whole multishot series, can take film, has the brightest and larger viewfinder out of all and its leaf shutter is as "quite as a dead man can be" (there are reports of people doing 16x multishot captures with the camera sitting ...on a table!!!!)

All in all, very hard to find a competitor system that would even come close in solutions provided and image quality combination, let alone the savings and the manouevrability due to the less equipment used and additionally, if an adapter for Leica S or even a DSLR would be made (which "a bird told me" its coming...   ;) ), one would only then require an additional UWA lens for it as to have an ultra compact, but impressively capable complete system that would cope with any task available. 
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up