What does it take, 50+ dead?

[Robert Roaldi]

The killer was an Islamic terrorist who called 911 emergency services before the attack to tell the police of his sworn allegiance to al-Baghdadi and ISIS.  He was a guard licensed to carry weapons.  Blaming this on lack of gun control or as a criminal act is just ignoring the fact that we are at war with these people.  Have you all forgotten that 911 terror that killed 3000 was committed with airplanes.  They will use bombs if guns aren't available, or planes or anything else,  and will use weapons of mass destruction if and when they get their hands on them.  Our leaders are trying to divert our attention from their failure to protect us by ignoring we are at war and blaming gun control and hateful people as the source of the problem.  Don't let them fool you.

Might be getting ahead of ourselves. All I've seen so far in the media is that the shooter self-identified as an ISIS supporter. He can self-identify as Batman too, doesn't mean a thing. There's no doubt that he terrorized people in Orlando but it's a big leap to call him an Islamic terrorist (at this point). I haven't seen any connection to any international organization that is using terror for political reasons.

And frankly, if the best that such a terrorist organization can do is kill unarmed partiers in a bar, as awful as that is, they are hardly the existential threat to the country that the government is failing to protect you from, are they?

This morning there's a new report of a guy with an arsenal who was headed to the L.A. Pride Parade (in a white Acura, they said). Is he a terrorist too? Maybe he is in the strictest sense of the word, but that is not what is understood to be terrorism by most people. Anyway, judging by early reports, this one appears to be just another in a long line of nut jobs with a really dangerous gun and lots of ammo.

It's bizarre to me that the US cannot pass legislation to prohibit non-hunting related weapons with large magazines from getting into the hands of people. From one entry in the this thread, they can't even introduce a waiting period to purchase such weapons, not even for ex-criminals or people with troubled histories. I guess the "other side" views this as the thin edge of the wedge. If you prohibit insane crooks from getting de facto machine guns, then law-abiding suburbanites are next, or so goes the  thinking. If this were the plot line of a Hollywood movie, no one would believe it, it is that absurd.

[RSL]

In Australia we have just marked the "Port Arthur Massacre" of 28–29 April 1996 in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded. Since then we have had gun control started by a conservative government. We have had no mass shootings since then.

You will have.

In a different thread I suggested it's time to stop worrying about bulls and start worrying about bullshit. This thread illustrates how right I was.

[RSL]

The killer was an Islamic terrorist who called 911 emergency services before the attack to tell the police of his sworn allegiance to al-Baghdadi and ISIS.  He was a guard licensed to carry weapons.  Blaming this on lack of gun control or as a criminal act is just ignoring the fact that we are at war with these people.  Have you all forgotten that 911 terror that killed 3000 was committed with airplanes.  They will use bombs if guns aren't available, or planes or anything else,  and will use weapons of mass destruction if and when they get their hands on them.  Our leaders are trying to divert our attention from their failure to protect us by ignoring we are at war and blaming gun control and hateful people as the source of the problem.  Don't let them fool you.

Too late, Alan. They're already fooled. Just read what they've written.

[tom b]

Actions speak louder than words.

No mass deaths, thirty years since a mass shooting in Australia, gun control works.

Port Arthur was a wake up call for Australia.

1,052 mass shootings in 1,066 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like.

Fifty plus deaths in a homophobic rampage.

What works? Gun control has worked in Australia and in most of the western world. What doesn't work, America probably should work out the answer.

Grumpy old man,

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Just in case I don't get this: are you saying that, in the States, there are 112 guns for each person? (And some think photographers are a bit nuts in their spending habits...)

The numbers are gun ownership per 100 residents.

Cheers,
Bart

[RSL]

See what I mean Alan?

[Peter McLennan]

Post deleted by author.

[AlterEgo]

Post deleted by author.

he got this from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

[RSL]

I don't understand why it's a struggle to "understand him." He was yelling "Allahu Akbar!" God is greatest!, as he shot down the people in that club. What's to understand? He was simply carrying out the commands of the Koran and its associated writings regarding homosexuals. You guys need to read that book before you make comments that miss the point. Best to do some research before you pontificate on a subject.

[shotupdave]

Russ, your own bible commands the same thing, so what's your point?

[AlterEgo]

Russ, your own bible commands the same thing, so what's your point?

he is WASP and they are not... so he is right and they are wrong.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I don't understand why it's a struggle to "understand him." He was yelling "Allahu Akbar!" God is greatest!, as he shot down the people in that club. What's to understand? He was simply carrying out the commands of the Koran and its associated writings regarding homosexuals. You guys need to read that book before you make comments that miss the point. Best to do some research before you pontificate on a subject.

The first prohibition against homosexuality occurs in the Old Testament that is revered by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.  Orthodox Judaism and some sects of Christianity continue to follow this prohibition.  Your call to do research is ill thought out in this regard.

[RSL]

he is WASP and they are not... so he is right and they are wrong.

I haven't heard about any Christians going into a bar yelling "God is great" and shooting up the place. Have you? The last two comments are absurdly beside the point. There probably was a time when the original Israelis killed homosexuals, but I doubt that's happened in the last 1300 or so years.

When was the last time you heard about a gay pride parade in Saudi Arabia? If you run across one, please let me know.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

This thread is absolutely mind-bogglingly amazing: it was an act of Islamic terrorism and everyone is discussing... gun control??? As if a determined terrorist would not be able to gain access to whatever arms he needs even if guns are outlawed (like in France)

[shotupdave]

I haven't heard about any Christians going into a bar yelling "God is great" and shooting up the place. Have you? The last two comments are absurdly beside the point. There probably was a time when the original Israelis killed homosexuals, but I doubt that's happened in the last 1300 or so years.

When was the last time you heard about a gay pride parade in Saudi Arabia? If you run across one, please let me know.

i hear preachers all of the time here in the united states saying that gays should be put to death. I saw a young white man walk into a church and kill innocent people. Because of racial bigotry. In Colorado, a man walked into PP, and murdered people in the name of religion. Doctors have been murdered because they choose to help women terminate their pregnancies.  We see white extremist christian groups pointing firearms at federal officials and the same group threatened violence when they occupied a federal park in Oregon.  We see christian countries in Africa making being gay a death crime and those laws were written by an american pastor named Scott Lively. So do not try to claim that this is just a problem with islam.

Your bible explicitly sanctions the killing of homosexuals, are you know saying god was wrong in this commandment? 

[Alan Goldhammer]

I haven't heard about any Christians going into a bar yelling "God is great" and shooting up the place. Have you? The last two comments are absurdly beside the point. There probably was a time when the original Israelis killed homosexuals, but I doubt that's happened in the last 1300 or so years.

When was the last time you heard about a gay pride parade in Saudi Arabia? If you run across one, please let me know.

The Oklahoma City federal building was blown up with 168 dead by two disaffected anti-government Christians.

[Christopher Sanderson]

Religion and politics are a very uneasy mix on this photography site, even in the Cofffee Corner.

The topic will be locked if it descends further into the inflammatory mix it threatens

And having given that warning, another: you will be banned permanently for inflammatory statements surrounding religion and sexuality - at my discretion and without appeal.

I urge you to think twice or three times before you hit Post

[Rob C]

This thread is absolutely mind-bogglingly amazing: it was an act of Islamic terrorism and everyone is discussing... gun control??? As if a determined terrorist would not be able to gain access to whatever arms he needs even if guns are outlawed (like in France)

Slobodan, the problem, isn't so clear-cut, mainly because it just flows conveniently into the general scenario of gun killings. That way, it's easier for people to show their horror at the events, whereas if they were to voice their opinions in any other manner, they would almost certainly come under fire from the PC brigade. About an hour ago I watched a 'debate' on France 24 tv and on the panel were two guys representing different aspects of gay rights, one was French, the other of Arabic origin. Both were absolutely disinterested in anything to do with religion as per Islam, both were concerned that the press didn't scream out for gay rights and that, I'm afraid, was all they gave a hoot about. A third man on the panel was American, some Republican official, and he was totally outgunned, and also too hesitant to be of any value.

What wasn't happening was anyone saying that they deplored the gay movement. The assumption (of being gay) was that it was the most natural thing in the world. Something called Stonewall (a street march) was touted as happening later on, delayed because of the 'football'; talk about gay ads!

Just before that, I watched Ms Clinton speaking in Ohio. She is one capable public speaker! No umms, errs, or visible reference notes, and she never missed a measured beat. I envied her her abilities! As a public person with potential for the highest office, she was utterly believable. Contrast her with Trump, and it is quite frightening. I make no comment on the policies - I don't know enough about them - but from the aspect of thinking of Trump in international political situations... oh dear.

Our (your) public figures really do need to be seen to know how to deport themselves responsibly.

But back to the killings. There will always be mad people; they will always find the means to their ends; if this particular guy was a died-in-the-wool ISIS chap, he made a brilliant choice of target: it has caused divisions in the 'host' nation and increased the dislikes/fears/suspicions of one set of moralities towards another. If he was a 'lone wolf' then so what: he espoused the ISIS cause very loudly and clearly, it seems. Regarding gun laws: there clearly aren't any - that mean anything, that is. The NRA obviously owns both government and redneck souls. Invest in Stetsons; sales are sure to go up.

I also learned a new acronym: LGBT - sounds like something to do with the railways. First time it's crossed my ears. I am having difficulty with the B, but I'm sure I'll find out what it stands for in time.

Rob

P.S. I have just read Chris's post: I trust this one of mine is not thought of as infammatory. It's not meant to be - just my reading of what's happening right now, and why there will be no solutions any time soon, and how everything gets taken over by a vested interest, however tragic the event..

[RSL]

The Oklahoma City federal building was blown up with 168 dead by two disaffected anti-government Christians.

Alan, maybe you haven't actually read about the Oklahoma City bombing, so I'll let you off on this one. The bombing had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that these guys were Christians.

[tom b]

I'll be honest, I didn't think this thread would go well and I asked Chris to take it down.
Once again, the Port Arthur massacre was a wake up call for Australia and it's anniversary is painful. However non-partisan politics has stopped mass gun violence from happening again.
What will it take in America?
Gun sales up