What does it take, 50+ dead?

[tom b]

Fifty plus dead, what does it take for Americans to take gun control seriously.

Gun control.

WTF,

[Rob C]

A hummer in New York Times Square with four or five suicidal terrorists, each with fully automatic machine guns and magazines to open up on a Friday or Saturday night. I reckon that kind of act would forever change the mindset of many regarding the ownership of such weapons. I don't know of anywhere else in the USA that you would find so many people exposed as pedestrians in an uncontrolled space and susceptible to gun fire. Maybe throw in a backup hummer manned with the same number of terrorists just for laughs. If that type of attack had no impact on the perception of owning automatic weapons then I can't think of anything that would.

Wouldn't work: terrorists are known to be mad, excusing everybody else who, of course, is super-responsible.

It's basic: only I should own a gun. Absolutely for self-protection.

Rob

[tom b]

Mass shootings. 1,052 mass shootings in 1,066 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like

Only in America

Really,

[tom b]

The other question, is it working?

Just think,

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

A hummer in New York Times Square with four or five suicidal terrorists, each with fully automatic machine guns and magazines to open up on a Friday or Saturday night. I reckon that kind of act would forever change the mindset of many regarding the ownership of such weapons.

How on earth would a kneejerk reaction towards more gun ownership deter a terrorist who attaches no value to life, not even his own (maybe even less if believing in a great reward in the afterlife)? It would only increase the chance of accidents and deliberate misuse of such weapons, which is exactly what is happening. More people die from those acts than from terrorism, and more die in the USA (pro Capita) than almost anywhere else (in civilized societies) because of it.

If that type of attack had no impact on the perception of owning automatic weapons then I can't think of anything that would.

So still more people dying from the results of gun ownership than from terrorism, would inspire people to prefer even more guns and (accidental) deaths?

A bold idea, how about reducing the reasons for terrorism ... and reducing the bigger threat of gun ownership.

Cheers,
Bart

[RSL]

Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.

Russ,

I hope you are not suggesting that they would not have taken place if guns had been allowed there?

What's next, gunslinging citizens killing other citizens when trying to hit a gunman, or are they all gunmen, let's shoot everybody holding a gun then, just to be, eh, safe?

Cheers,
Bart

[Rob C]

Genie broke the lamp.

Rob C

[Alan Goldhammer]

Not much can be done because of the gun lobby in the US.  They have managed to get laws past that absolve them of all liability in cases such as this one in Orlando.  Imagine if you could sue a company for wrongful death because of the use of it's product; they would go bankrupt the next day.  Can't do this in the US of A.  Guns are thought of as a citizen's right and until that mindset changes it will be difficult to do much. 

[Robert Roaldi]

In answer to the OP, nothing will change. If nothing changed after 20+ children were shot at an elementary school a couple of years back, why would anything change now.

A good but depressing read on the subject: Culture of the Gun.

[RSL]

Sure Alan, and if you get hit by a Honda and die your survivors should be able to sue Honda? The problem isn't the guns. The problem is the people. Holding manufacturers responsible for what people do with their product is an asinine idea.

And, Bart, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. For years I've thought about the Virginia Tech shooting. A professor barred the door to the shooter long enough for his students to get out and then got killed himself. As far as I'm concerned every professor in every college should be required to carry a gun and be required to qualify on the range regularly, just like I used to have to do. And the bar in Orlando should have had armed guards, or else some of the people in the crowd should have been armed. People like this attacker always are going to be able get hold of guns. It's a lucky thing his bomb didn't go off. By the time he shot one or two people he should have been killed by somebody who was armed.

[Robert Roaldi]

I've said this before, maybe even on these pages. Once you reach the point where you advocate that teachers in schools need to carry armed weapons, shouldn't that be the big red flag that makes everyone stop and rethink all the steps that were taken in the past that got you to this point?

[shotupdave]

Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.

that is absolute bullshit, spread by the pro gun crowd.

[tom b]

"When Americans think about deaths from guns, we tend to focus on homicides. But the problem of gun suicide is inescapable: More than 60 percent of people in this country who die from guns die by suicide".

Gun deaths are mainly suicides

Sorry American gun owners but you are more likely to kill yourself than a baddie with a gun.

Gun culture in America is a problem.

Grrrr.

[shotupdave]

Sure Alan, and if you get hit by a Honda and die your survivors should be able to sue Honda? The problem isn't the guns. The problem is the people. Holding manufacturers responsible for what people do with their product is an asinine idea.

And, Bart, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. For years I've thought about the Virginia Tech shooting. A professor barred the door to the shooter long enough for his students to get out and then got killed himself. As far as I'm concerned every professor in every college should be required to carry a gun and be required to qualify on the range regularly, just like I used to have to do. And the bar in Orlando should have had armed guards, or else some of the people in the crowd should have been armed. People like this attacker always are going to be able get hold of guns. It's a lucky thing his bomb didn't go off. By the time he shot one or two people he should have been killed by somebody who was armed.

actually we do hold manufactures liable for what their customers are doing with their products.

tobacco

drug manufacturers pushing doctors for over prescribing their drugs

your analogy is so flawed that is laughable.

you are the problem

[Manoli]

Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.

bollocks

[Trevor Murgatroyd]

http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2012/12/20/cartoons-of-the-day-nras-meaningful-contributions/

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Holding manufacturers responsible for what people do with their product is an asinine idea.

In principle, I agree. However, cars are designed to transport people, whereas guns are designed to ..., well, not to water the flowers, that's for sure.

Guns are never a solution, and at best a very very last resort. For it to be a last resort, the other issues need to be addressed first. Like, but that a deep one, why do people shoot (or otherwise harm) other people? Also, because there is a significant correlation in the USA, but not e.g. in Switzerland, between gun ownership and gun killings, Why is that the case?

Also, looking at a bigger picture, although maybe I'm wrong but I did predict things like the Orlando massacre in an earlier thread. I hope I'm wrong, but there is probably more to come now that it's becoming clear who will be the candidates for the Presidency.

Maybe a wall isn't such a bad idea, to keep the gun toting people in, that is ...
Sorry for the folk getting trapped though. Go vote?

Cheers,
Bart

[tom b]

I keep struggling with American politics.

This massacre was a clear case of homophobia, nothing to do with terrorism.

Just saying… however you should keep guns out of the hands of …

[jfirneno]

I keep struggling with American politics.

This massacre was a clear case of homophobia, nothing to do with terrorism.

Just saying… however you should keep guns out of the hands of …

The US government was aware of the radical beliefs that the shooter held several years ago.  But in fact he was working as a sub-contractor for the Dept. of Homeland Security, relocating illegal aliens.  Well the news agencies have stated that the killer self identified as a follower of ISIS.  Are you saying that ISIS isn't a terrorist organization.  And I don't think they limit their kill list to homosexuals.  I hear they're not so nice to Shia or Christians, or Zoroastrians. 

As far as gun control, I believe the French are pretty restrictive on gun ownership but that didn't do much for the people in that theater. They just had to stay there and wait their turn to be murdered.  Pretty dismal fate.  All the places in the US with the most hand gun violence have the most restrictive gun laws (namely cities like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta).  I think the expression that sums it up best is "when you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns."  Some people prefer to give themselves a sporting chance at survival.  I can't really blame them.