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Author Topic: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?  (Read 3048 times)

Gilgamesh

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Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« on: June 07, 2016, 08:56:15 am »

Greetings from sunny NW England.

A little background, as I have owned film 'Blad CM 500's and Leica M6 and M240 bodies with current lenses (28 f2.8, 35 f1.4, 50 f1.4, 90 f2.0 ), Mamiya 7 + 80mm so I am used to top-flight images and technique.

So, I am on eBay, looking for something along the lines of a 40mb back plus a body with the corresponding 2x lenses, the equivalent of a 35mm and a standard 50mm in terms of 35mm photography - an 80 and a 50/60mm lenses (?).

What in your opinion are my options? "Blad and Pentax? If so, which 'Blad as there seen to be so many?

How do the two stack up against each other?

Am I ignoring Phase 1 and others at my peril?

Thanks in anticipation.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 09:02:42 am by Gilgamesh »
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Hywel

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2016, 10:33:49 am »

What are your planned main uses?

I'd say the main differentiating factor is CCD vs. CMOS sensor. The most recent generation or two of MF have CMOS sensors; older generations are CCD.

CCD is relatively "light-insensitive" with a base ISO typically 25, 50 or maybe 100 for sensors like the H3Dii with microlenses (and even then I rate it at ISO 80 at best, really). And you can't really push a CCD sensor much past base ISO, in my experience.

CMOS on the other hand usually comes at base ISO 100 and can be successfully pushed, depending on your use, certainly to ISO 800 and in many cases beyond.

As you're looking second-hand you'll probably find many more CCD-based systems than CMOS, and now is a great time to pick up a bargain as early adopters shed their CCD stuff for CMOS.

If you are looking to hand-hold at 1/50th of a second at ISO 800, you're going to want CMOS and the hell with the expense.

If you mostly shoot locked-off landscapes on a tripod with long exposures, you might even find CCD's low base ISO a point in its favour- less need for ND filters.


The Hasselblad system feels like a big dSLR in use and is a nicely rounded system, with good dealer and rental support world-wide. The lenses range from pretty good to very good, and all have leaf shutters (which was a big plus for me as I like to use flash and daylight together on location when shooting models). I've been very happy with my H3Dii although it does have a more-than-usually cropped sensor which is less than ideal if you're after wide landscapes. The big change going to the H4D was a system for correcting focussing errors when you focus and recompose, which inevitably introduces some tilt- the camera corrects for this automatically. I gather it works very well, although at my typical working apertures I can't really say I've noticed the lack. The H5D is a bit of an all-around polish up, with both CCD and CMOS options.  The new H6D is a more radical redesign, I gather, and CMOS only.


If my Hasselblad were to suffer an unfortunate accident, I'd probably buy a second-hand H4D-40.

I'd DEFINITELY replace it with a Hassy of some form. (I'd have to weigh the second hand savings against the appeal of an H6D and a second mortgage....)

http://www.procentre.co.uk usually have a bunch of second hand ones in stock.

The Pentax options are attractive. Although I've not used them myself yet, I gather the 645D was quirky but promising. The 645Z seems to be a very accomplished performer indeed, with a CMOS sensor and imaging chain which people feel really gets the best from it. The limiting factor here may be lenses- the quality seems to be much more variable over the range, so hopefully someone else can help here.

Phase backs are extremely well thought of but the bodies they go on rather less so (with the probable exception of the new one). They don't have the "works like a point and shoot when you need to" quality of the Hasselblads and Pentax's, from what I remember of the one time I tried one.

Overall I've been delighted with my Hasselblad, it has been my business workhorse for about six years now. I've supplemented it with a Sony A7Rii for low light.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Hywel

P.S. in the interests of balance, I would say that the quality of the rear LCD screen on previous gen Hasselblads is truly awful. Fine for menus and histograms, not really great for checking focus, and totally utterly misleadingly awful when it comes to colour. I hope the later models are better!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 02:23:15 pm by Hywel »
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synn

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2016, 10:56:54 am »

The cheapest circa 40 MP MFD you can get is an H3D 39
Leaf Aptus IIs will cost a bit more, but have much better screens. Get it with a Mamiya 645 Df+ body if you can ( I will explain why below).
If you want to do really long exposures, Phase One P45+ is pretty much the only option at the lower end of used MFDBs, but will be more expensive than the other two.  Get this too with a Mamiya 645 DF+ body if you can.
Pentax 645D is a good option if you dont need leaf shutter lenses and are not looking at upgrading the body and back separately. It will be the closest thing to a 35mm DSLR. The others have a learning curve to get used to.

The Mamiya and Pentax bodies will allow you to use very cheap legacy lenses (I have several and love them). The Mamiya will also allow the use of modern leaf shutter lenses.

The Hasselblad body only accepts modern leaf shutter lenses (Or legacy V system lenses if you dont mind a bit of cludge and manual focusing) which raises the initial purchase price, but all the lenses are quite good and you have a very good lens selection to choose from.


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Joe Towner

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2016, 01:25:29 pm »

What are you looking to get out of MF gear?  What types of shooting do you do, and are you manual focus friendly or reliant on AF?  Do you need faster than 1/125th flash sync speed?  Did you love your Hass, or did you find it cumbersome?

Any of the H3D- or H3DII- systems will work and are pretty cheap, but I'd be worried about repairs to the body.  The Pentax 645D may be a touch cheaper than the 'Blad, but doesn't have some of the really nice features of the 645Z (tilting screen, generally faster brain, CMOS chip, etc).  Given the 40mp range, have you tried the A7r2 option with your existing glass?

-Joe
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Hywel

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2016, 02:38:55 pm »

It's true that Hasselblad repair costs can be steep (getting a 50mm lens repaired cost more than a new 85mm GM lens for the Sony).

But at least they do fixed price quotes, the service turnaround is pretty good in my experience, and you will stand a fighting chance of hiring a replacement if you need it at short notice.

Buy a low shot count older body which doesn't show signs of heavy use and I'd have thought you'd be fine.

The A7R2 is a fine camera, and gets good results in a wide range of shooting conditions. I bring it on every shoot, and use it often.

I prefer the results from the Hasselblad, which is the most important thing at the end of the day of course!

The colour rendition is great. Phocus skin tones are my personal fave of any camera/raw processor combo, and require very little work in post which is a serious consideration for production. I prefer 4:3 aspect ratio for people photography, so that's nice too. Flash sync at 1/800th with external strobe generators is very useful to me.

But your usage my vary- depends on what you're wanting to shoot with it :)

Cheers, Hywel


« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 02:45:32 pm by Hywel »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2016, 03:11:16 pm »

Don't get me wrong, I love my Hass, it's just a few years ago they adjusted what could be repaired, and I'm waiting to see what happens now post H6D release:
http://hasselbladbron.com/whatsup/news-announcements/entry/discontinued-products-announcement.html

At a certain point it's cheaper to replace than repair, but buying a 40mp camera today, you should expect years of shooting.
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Ken R

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2016, 04:50:09 pm »

Greetings from sunny NW England.

A little background, as I have owned film 'Blad CM 500's and Leica M6 and M240 bodies with current lenses (28 f2.8, 35 f1.4, 50 f1.4, 90 f2.0 ), Mamiya 7 + 80mm so I am used to top-flight images and technique.

So, I am on eBay, looking for something along the lines of a 40mb back plus a body with the corresponding 2x lenses, the equivalent of a 35mm and a standard 50mm in terms of 35mm photography - an 80 and a 50/60mm lenses (?).

What in your opinion are my options? "Blad and Pentax? If so, which 'Blad as there seen to be so many?

How do the two stack up against each other?

Am I ignoring Phase 1 and others at my peril?

Thanks in anticipation.

Depends.

On your budget and intended use.

For Landscapes I strongly recommend a tech camera setup (I own a Arca RM3Di) but for people and general photography an SLR is a much better choice (I also own a Hasselblad H1). I use my Phase back on both. I pick one depending on the job at hand.

If you can afford it the best value are the large 60MP sensor backs. They offer great resolution, dynamic range and overall superb image quality even compared to the latest and greatest. The large sensor gives more options regarding lenses (specially if you value wide angle coverage).

Of the 40mp backs the Leaf Credo 40 and the Phase IQ140 offer a great user interface with a great lcd screen. The older backs have basically junk lcd's. Hasselblad only recently improved their lcd's on the H series with the new H6D series.
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BobShaw

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2016, 07:19:53 pm »

I have been and still am a long time Canon shooter. However a few years ago I bought a Hasselblad H1 kit with 18MP Phase One back and have been hooked ever since. There is really no comparison in image quality.
Since then i went to an H2 body, then H3DII-31 and now H3DII-39. I have several lenses. Everything has been bought second hand. Now looking for an H4D.

The Hasselblad with integrated back was much better than the Phase back combo and I have had Mamiya AFD cameras (which became Phase) and just didn't like them compared to the Hasselblad. The Phase required separate batteries which it ate and also the wake up thing with a view camera.

The only problem with Hassy is next step lust.
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hasselbladfan

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2016, 05:57:51 am »

If you do portrait, I would definitely go for H4.

The True Focus is fantastic.
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torger

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2016, 06:33:19 am »

If you're on a budget, which you seems to be, staying away is the best ;-)

The Phase One and Hasselblad systems are very expensive, unless you dig into second hand stuff where you can find good value. If you want latest technology with reasonable cost a Pentax is a better choice, the main weakness being less than top-notch lenses and color profiles (unless you use mine  ;) ). However if pixel peeping wide angle corners isn't your favorite hobby you may find the Pentax to be a very nice camera indeed.

In second hand space Hasselblad has many good options with the 47x39mm sensor size, but note that this size has been phased out, in the future you choose between 44x33 and 54x41mm, so when you eventually upgrade you will get a changed field of view of your lenses which may or may not be a problem.

Around here (Sweden) I'd definitely go for second hand Hassy as the availability and prices are both quite good. Note that lenses are still rather expensive though. The older Hassy bodies are quite good, while it seems many are disappointed with the older Phase One (Mamiya) bodies, mainly the auto-focus. I have only tested the Hassy (own Hasselblad H4D-50) so I can't say much about older Mamiya.

If you shoot landscape, you could go for a tech cam and enjoy a traditional shooting style similar to large format with movements. There's a jungle of cameras out there though and many bits about compatibility and upgrade paths, so you need to research thoroughly before dipping into that. I'm myself using my H4D-50 back on a Linhof Techno together with Schneider Digitar lenses and that's the perfect camera for me, but a tech camera certainly narrows down the styles where it works well. Trying to use a tech camera in styles they aren't suitable for is just an exercise in frustration.

The best all-around options are the SLRs with CMOS sensors, and of those Pentax is much more economical than the alternatives.

The raw converter may also matter to you. To some it doesn't, they just use Lightroom for everything and is happy for that, but to others Capture One can be the tipping point that make them choose Phase One over the alternatives. Hasselblad's Phocus is quite rudimentary, but if you ask me the color is better than the competition, but it's a matter of taste. I use custom software and custom profiles myself so to me it doesn't matter much, but that's just me, most want to use the default software.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 07:37:49 am by torger »
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eronald

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2016, 09:11:28 am »

My opinion, which is well known here is that the Phase One backs are mostly good products, and their software superb; however I would stay away from the old range of Mamiya/Phase cameras which are mediocre especially regarding focus; very cheap lenses for these are however easy to find.

The Hasselblad bodies have better ergonomics and focus, and from the H4 on, extremely accurate focus. There is a big market in used lenses; they contain the shutter unit. The newer Hassies really have better focus than the Mamiyas. The Hassy Phocus software, and Lightroom do not have quite the same abilities as Phase software, but give very usable results.

The old Pentax 645D is a bargain with an aging but nice CCD chip, the current 645Z is a nice CHEAP state-of -the-art body with a state-of-the-art current CMOS sensor.  It is something like $8K new, and doubtless much cheaper used. This is probably the only really affordable CMOS 50MP dSLR medium format solution that can be bought new or used. A bunch of old Pentax lenses are out there. The Pentax looks boxy and meh when you try it out, but except for tethering, imagewise and usagewise it has had good reviews from EVERY single person on this forum who has bought one.

There are some nice CCD-based Leica S2 bodies around $5K on eBay; they have a crop CCD sensor in a different format, I think 3/2 ratio, rather than 4/3 for the above, and are the closest you can find to a dSLR body in 35mm. Lenses are nice but expensive.

If you ask for a *recommendation*, I would go for Hassy or Pentax if you do handheld work, because ergonomics are important, or else you lose the benefit of the high resolution. If you are tethered then Phase One is the better deal, their software is the best and their backs are tough as nails and last forever. The S-series  Leicas are cute, like everything Leica, but strangely enough they are actually pretty decent value for money :)

There are some dealers on here, Steve Hendrix and Doug Peterson - they are solid, reputable and EXTREMELY helpful, reliable in every way, but you should be sure not to buy  a Phase solution just because they sell well :)

Edmund

PS. Some guys use digital backs on view cameras or tech cameras; if you want to do that, you should say so, it's a different game.

PPS. Did we say "Welcome"? New MF is overpriced, but I'm astonished more people don't buy older kit.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 09:22:44 am by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2016, 10:38:31 am »

PPS. Did we say "Welcome"? New MF is overpriced, but I'm astonished more people don't buy older kit.

To me they are like those old houses that are great looking from the outside but such a pain to live in once you've tried a modern place.

Cheers,
Bernard

Vincent

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2016, 10:49:58 am »

Hello everyone! I will grab this opportunity to introduce myself, I just joined Luminous Landscape recently and unless I missed it, I didn't find a forum category for greetings and introductions.

I actually just made the move from 35mm to medium format myself last week! I wrote a post about it, I invite you to have a look, maybe some of the information I wrote can be useful to you. http://vincentlions.com/medium-format-at-last/
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torger

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2016, 10:56:38 am »

To me they are like those old houses that are great looking from the outside but such a pain to live in once you've tried a modern place.

Cheers,
Bernard

I use to say that if you get into MFD only for the image quality, you will soon get out. To use MFD you should like the feature set, with quirks and all. This is even more true for tech cameras, which with an older CCD back is not so much different from shooting large format film, except you don't need to worry about cost per exposure.

Many MFD users of this forum would not consider to use an old 22-40 megapixel CCD back because they feel it's not good enough to say an A7r-II. Those that have the budget often upgrade to the latest and greatest as fast as they can. If you have that mindset, second hand MFD is not a good option.

With the new CMOS offers MFD can attract the broader market as it's much easier to use, but it's not exactly a cheap entry still for a few years.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 10:59:43 am by torger »
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eronald

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2016, 01:59:30 pm »

Hello everyone! I will grab this opportunity to introduce myself, I just joined Luminous Landscape recently and unless I missed it, I didn't find a forum category for greetings and introductions.

I actually just made the move from 35mm to medium format myself last week! I wrote a post about it, I invite you to have a look, maybe some of the information I wrote can be useful to you. http://vincentlions.com/medium-format-at-last/

Welcome, Vincent!
Always nice to see a new face!

Edmund.
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Vincent

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Re: Moving on up from 35mm. What do you suggest?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2016, 02:58:37 pm »

Welcome, Vincent!
Always nice to see a new face!

Edmund.

Thanks Edmund! I'm very excited to join the Luminous Landscape community.
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Vincent
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