Question about noise reduction - raw image

[marvpelkey]

I have little experience with having to do any noise reduction in my images. I have my 810's iso set to its native number and don't shoot any images where noise has been an issue. Having said that, a buddy is seeking advice on this particular topic. He shot a number of long exposure night images (raw) on a recent trip where he had his in-camera (Nikon d600) noise controls turned off. Some of his images seem to be quite noisy (reminds me of serious grain back in the old days on film scanned images) and is asking for my input on how to best mitigate the noise. He used Lightroom to process. My initial thought was to re-process the images using the Nikon software and introduce the noise reduction control(s) during that stage. Is this the same as having the noise reduction turned on in-camera and, if not, can anyone point to a decent noise reduction tutorial (Lightroom)?

Thanks

Marv

[Mark D Segal]

Lightroom has a noise mitigation tool in the Detail menu. He should try that first. If he is not happy with the outcome, there are plugins such as Noiseware, Noise Ninja, Topaz Denoise, Neat Image etc. which do a fine job.

[Tony Jay]

I have little experience with having to do any noise reduction in my images. I have my 810's iso set to its native number and don't shoot any images where noise has been an issue. Having said that, a buddy is seeking advice on this particular topic. He shot a number of long exposure night images (raw) on a recent trip where he had his in-camera (Nikon d600) noise controls turned off. Some of his images seem to be quite noisy (reminds me of serious grain back in the old days on film scanned images) and is asking for my input on how to best mitigate the noise. He used Lightroom to process. My initial thought was to re-process the images using the Nikon software and introduce the noise reduction control(s) during that stage. Is this the same as having the noise reduction turned on in-camera and, if not, can anyone point to a decent noise reduction tutorial (Lightroom)?

Thanks

Marv

Marv there are quite a few points that you raise.

I personally think that Jeff Schewe does the best expose on noise - cause, prevention, and post-processing treatment.
The tutorial series available on this site: "Camera to Print and Screen" is probably the most extensive "how to" that I am aware of that Jeff has done.

I understand that this enquiry is on behalf of another but there are several points that you raise about your own workflow that interest me.
I am not sure if you shoot raw or JPEG's.
If you shoot JPEG's then the camera does the noise reduction in creating the JPEG.
If you shoot raw then no in-camera settings with respect to noise reduction will work.
Obviously, settings that affect the actual amount of light hitting the sensor influence noise generation, as does ISO settings which can amplify any noise that is present.

Noise is present at any ISO setting, even base ISO.
The sensor in the D810 is absolutely one of the best as far as noise limitation is concerned but, again, that does not mean that noise is not present.
I shoot with a Sony A7R as well as it's mark II which uses the same, or similar, sensor, and every image needs attention with respect to noise, even if that attention is minimal.
No matter how good sensors become, which reduces noise caused by the sensor itself, shot noise will always be with us.
Shot noise is caused by subtle variations in incident light hitting the sensels on the sensor.

I would suggest viewing that tutorial and learning how easy it is to deal with noise (along with sharpening as they are actually two sides of the same coin).

Tony Jay

[Ken Bennett]

Tony, you're right on with your comments, but I think the problem is that the friend was shooting long exposure night sky photos with "all noise reduction turned off" -- does the Nikon offer Long Exposure Noise Reduction? (Dark Frame Subtraction?) If so, and it was turned off, I'd expect a lot of noise in a very long exposure. Even for raw files, Long Exposure Noise Reduction has a significant effect, and it's the only noise reduction I keep turned on in my cameras.

Marv, I would start with the noise reduction tools in Lightroom and see how far you can get. Try increasing the Amount and the Radius, and play with the masking. You might get some additional benefit from adding a film grain look using the Grain slider after you've gotten all you can out of noise reduction - it can help mask some of the "digital" look that heavy NR sometimes gives.

It's possible to shoot a "dark frame" at the same exposure time and use that to cancel out much of the noise using software, but I think for best results it needs to be done at the same time as the original photo. People who shoot astro photography have all kinds of interesting software for this.

[Tony Jay]

Tony, you're right on with your comments, but I think the problem is that the friend was shooting long exposure night sky photos with "all noise reduction turned off" -- does the Nikon offer Long Exposure Noise Reduction? (Dark Frame Subtraction?) If so, and it was turned off, I'd expect a lot of noise in a very long exposure. Even for raw files, Long Exposure Noise Reduction has a significant effect, and it's the only noise reduction I keep turned on in my cameras.

Marv, I would start with the noise reduction tools in Lightroom and see how far you can get. Try increasing the Amount and the Radius, and play with the masking. You might get some additional benefit from adding a film grain look using the Grain slider after you've gotten all you can out of noise reduction - it can help mask some of the "digital" look that heavy NR sometimes gives.

It's possible to shoot a "dark frame" at the same exposure time and use that to cancel out much of the noise using software, but I think for best results it needs to be done at the same time as the original photo. People who shoot astro photography have all kinds of interesting software for this.

Ken, you are probably right about the third-party.
I have to confess that most of my post was for Marv rather his friend.

Tony Jay

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

It's possible to shoot a "dark frame" at the same exposure time and use that to cancel out much of the noise using software, but I think for best results it needs to be done at the same time as the original photo. People who shoot astro photography have all kinds of interesting software for this.

Hi Ken,

Yes, 'Darkframe subtraction' is what is needed for long exposure time noise. However, a single dark frame is not the best way. Using an average of multiple darkframes is better. The free RawTherapee converter has such an option, it averages multiple darkframes that have been shot with the same settings. If the outdoor temperature is somewhat comparable, it isn't necessary to shoot them on the spot, it can be done later.

So for Marv's friend, there is a solution, even after the fact. There are several other Astrophotography related software solutions available as well, but they get very technical very quickly. RawTherapee is relatively simple to use for this purpose.

Cheers,
Bart

[Ken Bennett]

I was thinking that sensor temperature would be involved, but it's good to know one can shoot the dark frames after the fact. Thanks.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I was thinking that sensor temperature would be involved, but it's good to know one can shoot the dark frames after the fact. Thanks.

Correct, sensor temperature is involved, but the sensor will heat up as the after-the-fact Darkframes are shot. Long exposure noise differs from other noise in that it is not completely random, and increases exponentially with prolonged exposure time. So for the best results, make sure to create the Darkframes with the same exposure times as the originals.

Cheers,
Bart

[marvpelkey]

Thanks to everyone for their replies and interesting points.

I will not only inform my friend of some of the suggestions, but will be reviewing the Schewe video myself. As I have only had my 810 for a short time, I have had little opportunity to really understand its noise "capabilities", but so far it seems to be decent in that respect (having said that, I took it out today and shot some images at a location (near Hope, British Columbia) called the Othello Tunnels ( a series of old train tunnels through solid rock) and used a variety of exposure times in extremely dark/light conditions. Have yet to review the images).

Thanks again,

Marv

[Ajoy Roy]

Though it is quite late now, recently I tried DENOISE Projects and the test runs were quite satisfactory in aggressive noise reduction.
https://www.projects-software.com/denoise-projects-professional

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Though it is quite late now, recently I tried DENOISE Projects and the test runs were quite satisfactory in aggressive noise reduction.
https://www.projects-software.com/denoise-projects-professional

Yes, in their Expert mode, the Luminosity "Denoise HD Ultra" algorithm (and it is as they promised very calculation intensive, AKA slow) is quite good at preserving detail while also effective at removing noise. I still have to try it on high ISO images though, but I rarely shoot those.

Cheers,
Bart

[earlybird]

Though it is quite late now, recently I tried DENOISE Projects and the test runs were quite satisfactory in aggressive noise reduction.
https://www.projects-software.com/denoise-projects-professional

I went to look at the link and see the price marked as $69.99 USD but when I hit "buy" the price jumps to $129. I am in the USA, is there some sort of sale going on that isn't being acknowledged at the automated cart shown by the Cleverbridge vendor I am directed too?

Thank you.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I went to look at the link and see the price marked as $69.99 USD but when I hit "buy" the price jumps to $129.

Hi,

They are not being very clear about it on that page, here it's much clearer, but the USD 69 is for the Standard (Artist?) version, and the USD 129 is for the Professional (Photographer?) version. That price does include VAT, so I suppose there could be a possibility for registered businesses to have that VAT deducted, or reclaimed somehow. Ask them.

I've noticed that after subscribing to their email information, they send out coupon codes for discount on specific products. Maybe that only happens if one already purchased a product, don't know, but it could be worthwhile to subscribe and wait a bit, and see if anything happens.

Cheers,
Bart

[earlybird]

Hi Bart,
 Thank you for the explanation. I have downloaded the trial and started exploring the options.

 Thank you.

[Rajan Parrikar]

Hi Bart,
 Thank you for the explanation. I have downloaded the trial and started exploring the options.

 Thank you.

Right now you can buy it for $39.

[Rajan Parrikar]

Right now you can buy it for $39.

Here -

https://topwaresale.com/product/franzis-denoise-projects-professional-discount-coupon/

[earlybird]

Hi Rajan,
 Thank you for posting the info and the link.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I find that LR's denoise mostly does a fine job. It is probably oriented towards sensor based and may be not so good for scanned film.

The way LR handles noise reduction, I think it is intertwined with demosaic and sharpening.

With TIFF base denoise I don't think that you have that kind of optimised interaction.

Best regards
Erik

Lightroom has a noise mitigation tool in the Detail menu. He should try that first. If he is not happy with the outcome, there are plugins such as Noiseware, Noise Ninja, Topaz Denoise, Neat Image etc. which do a fine job.

[leuallen]

I bit on the $39 offer. Caution, this may mess up your workflow. When called as a plugin from PS is is an export program. In other words, it does not work on the selected layer but export a new copy of the file to a selected location. I edited from LR to PS and ran the plugin (found  under File>export), and then saved.
I shows a file dialog box but it is not in the same folder as the LR file so you have to navigate to the correct folder if you can remember it. Very convoluted.

I followed the defaults for processing. The results did not knock my socks off. I ran the same file in Denoise 6 and did not see much difference.

Larry

[earlybird]

I did not find a sweet spot for the settings while demoing as a Photoshop plug in today and the work flow does seem inconvenient. On the other hand I haven't tried using the free standing app on a RAW file, and that seems interesting to me.

Thankfully, I have 29 more days to experiment.