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Author Topic: Photography Lesson #3  (Read 2739 times)

Rob C

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Photography Lesson #3
« on: May 30, 2016, 03:58:12 pm »

RSL

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2016, 05:08:35 pm »

Amen!
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GrahamBy

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2016, 06:01:08 am »

Go John !
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Zorki5

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2016, 06:12:10 am »

Go John !

Yeah, nice commercial :)

Have to say through that, as understanding and helpful as we wants to look, John himself is not above some torture of his viewers and listeners with passing freight trains...
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GrahamBy

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2016, 06:53:55 am »

In fact "coaching" is something of a plague today. Everyone wants to be a coach: for photography, or yoga, or to get ahead in your job, or even just in life.
Many remind me of those books or courses offering to teach you how to get rich on the stock-market or elsewhere: the real method is selling books to suckers. The "life coaches" have managed to have happy fulfilling lives by not doing any of the things they recommend, but rather by recommending them.

Also, while one might suggest that the qualifications of people teaching in schools, colleges, universities et al may have inappropriate qualifications, the role of the institution is to ensure they have some, and to oversee their behaviour. Many coaches have nothing to offer but their smiling face.

Of course, some will be good. When Pete Sampras hired Ivan Lendl as a coach (I think?) some years back, he knew what he was paying for. Look at the work, indeed.
Just don't mistake social media fame for talent... or for the ability to share something useful, in a useful way.

But, but... maybe all we really want is for someone famous to tell us we're doing it right?  Hmmm...
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2016, 02:06:49 pm »

Not sure I follow. Is a guy who teaches and gives seminars telling everyone not to take courses? :)
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Robert

Zorki5

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2016, 02:22:35 pm »

Not sure I follow. Is a guy who teaches and gives seminars telling everyone not to take courses? :)

John Free is a "coach", he promotes his "coaching", while slamming a more formal education in photography schools.

To me, it's... a questionable proposition. There are good and bad teachers at schools/universities, and there are good and bad coaches. Except that with schools/universities, there is at least some sense of responsibility: a good school/university won't give you diploma unless they feel they've taught you something.

Besides... I'm always skeptical about people that promote themselves by explaining how bad someone else is.
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Rob C

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2016, 02:52:41 pm »

So there you are, Grasshoppers, I have opened your eyes to the greater truths!

My educational course is run.

;-)

The ¿Master?

Ed B

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2016, 09:58:00 pm »

Everything he said could be applied to a lot of colleges/universities. Somewhere in the world is the worst doctor, is that because of his university or the person themselves?

One thing that stood out to me was when he said that only you can teach yourself photography. There are lots of things a school can teach you, lighting, processing (especially in the film days, zone system? printing? Even now, business? Photoshop? Lightroom?). Yeah, you can learn on your own through trial and error but it will take longer.

My daughter has said to me about college that you basically teach yourself and her field of study couldn't be more opposed to photography. The best way to learn something is to do it, is that not common sense?  That was the gist of his message but he comes off as self serving and bitter. Beware photography schools? Beware life. The guidance from a school is helpful. Should no one go to school for business or architecture or psychology or sciences? Hell no, just do workshops!

"PRIVATE ONE-ON-ONE WORKSHOPS WITH JOHN FREE  in Los Angeles are available year round for an full day working on the street with John. The cost is $400 per day in various locations around LA." Shit, he can't even get grammar right on his own site.

And if he had any sense he would have waited for that train to pass. oy.

There are those that can do and those that teach. They aren't necessary interchangeable.

And in case anyone is wondering, no I don't teach. Not sure I could.
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Rob C

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2016, 04:23:38 am »

Everything he said could be applied to a lot of colleges/universities. Somewhere in the world is the worst doctor, is that because of his university or the person themselves?

One thing that stood out to me was when he said that only you can teach yourself photography. There are lots of things a school can teach you, lighting, processing (especially in the film days, zone system? printing? Even now, business? Photoshop? Lightroom?). Yeah, you can learn on your own through trial and error but it will take longer.

My daughter has said to me about college that you basically teach yourself and her field of study couldn't be more opposed to photography. The best way to learn something is to do it, is that not common sense?  That was the gist of his message but he comes off as self serving and bitter. Beware photography schools? Beware life. The guidance from a school is helpful. Should no one go to school for business or architecture or psychology or sciences? Hell no, just do workshops!

"PRIVATE ONE-ON-ONE WORKSHOPS WITH JOHN FREE  in Los Angeles are available year round for an full day working on the street with John. The cost is $400 per day in various locations around LA." Shit, he can't even get grammar right on his own site.

And if he had any sense he would have waited for that train to pass. oy.

There are those that can do and those that teach. They aren't necessary interchangeable.

And in case anyone is wondering, no I don't teach. Not sure I could.


Well, I don't think that anyone can honestly compare the 'art' of photography with anything else. Its mechanics/electronics are, today, far more complex than in the days of film, but the underlying premise, the image, remains as easy or difficulty to do as you do or do not have the head for it.

I went to photography night school - compulsory - for a while during part of my training in an in-house industrial photo-unit where we served the needs of a massive engineering group. It was the most boring, negative (no pun intended - far from it) and irrelevant exercise that one could imagine. I eventually dropped out and nothing happened to me at work: I turned out to be more valuable to the outfit with the abilites that I already had than I was going to be simply by dint of wasting my evenings with lecturers who, had they been any good at the day job, wouldn't have had to supplement their livings by spending their time off in a college.

Photography is very easy to do; it demands no great scholastic background. What it demands by the bucketful is determination and resilience. Period. If you have it, along with the essential talent, of course, nothing's gonna stop you.

Whether the man in the video does or doesn't flog courses is really neither here nor there: what ¡s crucial is what you get for you money if you do put it up front. My suggestion would be that you go to a place that teaches the mechanics and electronics, good PS skills, and leaves the actual images - the part that makes you different - absolutely alone. Don't let any institution mess with your mind: they will try to take it over and turn you into a clone of themselves. It's human nature to try to pass on the views that you hold and to judge/evaluate the progress in others by your own yardstick - in reality, what else is there anyone can do?

GrahamBy

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2016, 07:01:56 am »

Making people aware of the history, in so far as the variety of styles and the photographers (and painters, sculptors, lino-block cutters) who executed them exceptionally well, must also be important I think. We had the argument about whether you can learn anything from looking at the images of H C-B, but even if one doesn't "learn" in the narrow sense, you can observe what pleases you from what has already been done. Or perhaps more important, to tuck away memories of images that don't please now, but might later.

In fact, I think that is one of the important aspects of formal syllabi : you are forced to learn the stuff you don't see the point of at age 18, but which turns out to be important to you at 48. It can be abused, of course...

It would be interesting to compare with literature. US institutions seem to like offering courses in "Creative Writing." UK and its ex-empire were traditionally less indulgent, and force-fed literature... while leaving the creative part of writing up to the student to attempt or not. Then again, it has been opined that the most effective way of preventing teenage sex would be to teach it in the same style as English Literature (please see Monty Python "Sex Education" segment from "The Meaning of Life")... so maybe it was all a plot to contain the number of aspiring novelists to reasonable levels.
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Rob C

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2016, 07:22:33 am »

Making people aware of the history, in so far as the variety of styles and the photographers (and painters, sculptors, lino-block cutters) who executed them exceptionally well, must also be important I think. We had the argument about whether you can learn anything from looking at the images of H C-B, but even if one doesn't "learn" in the narrow sense, you can observe what pleases you from what has already been done. Or perhaps more important, to tuck away memories of images that don't please now, but might later.

In fact, I think that is one of the important aspects of formal syllabi : you are forced to learn the stuff you don't see the point of at age 18, but which turns out to be important to you at 48. It can be abused, of course...

It would be interesting to compare with literature. US institutions seem to like offering courses in "Creative Writing." UK and its ex-empire were traditionally less indulgent, and force-fed literature... while leaving the creative part of writing up to the student to attempt or not. Then again, it has been opined that the most effective way of preventing teenage sex would be to teach it in the same style as English Literature (please see Monty Python "Sex Education" segment from "The Meaning of Life")... so maybe it was all a plot to contain the number of aspiring novelists to reasonable levels.

Yes, that's why I have always recommended aspiring snappers look at lots of magazines, videos, anything visual that they can get their hands on, not to copy, but simply in order to understand what they like.

Once you know that, you know where to head.

Plots of limitations? The market has always done that all by itself for both writers and snappers as well as pretty much everything else except fonctionnaires... It's the art colleges that keep on churning out the surplus fodder to eventual disappointment.

;-)

Rob

RSL

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2016, 09:19:50 am »

Right, Rob. Having a degree in art is like having a degree in music. What the hell does that  mean? I've always pondered that question since one of my grandsons -- in fact he's the one named after me -- got a degree in music from a top northeast college. Turns out he's become a first-class software engineer. Maybe they taught that in music class? He's also a great violinist, and he does that in his spare time, but he was good with the instrument before he went to college, and I don't think a degree in music makes you a better violinist.

Perhaps the point of a degree in art or music is that it puts you in a better position to BS on the subject.
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Rob C

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Re: Photography Lesson #3
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2016, 09:49:07 am »

Right, Rob. Having a degree in art is like having a degree in music. What the hell does that  mean? I've always pondered that question since one of my grandsons -- in fact he's the one named after me -- got a degree in music from a top northeast college. Turns out he's become a first-class software engineer. Maybe they taught that in music class? He's also a great violinist, and he does that in his spare time, but he was good with the instrument before he went to college, and I don't think a degree in music makes you a better violinist.

Perhaps the point of a degree in art or music is that it puts you in a better position to BS on the subject.

It might even fail to be an essential there: all you need is an agent who can do the bullshitting for you! I don't think they tend to have degrees from colleges - just street smarts; far more valuable.

Rob
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