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Author Topic: Nikon in trouble?  (Read 29084 times)

Zorki5

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2016, 10:51:41 am »

"Connectivity" is a much broader thing.

I should probably expand on that a bit. Especially considering that it would allow me to stay on topic of Nikon being in trouble.

"Connectivity" is very closely related to what can be called "interoperability". And that is something Nikon is/was traditionally very bad at.

I remember that when I was deciding which DSLR route to take, Nikon's encryption of WB info in NEF files played significant role in my choice of Canon back then.

That dreaded encryption as such is surely not a big deal, but it's a bad omen of things to come. For instance, can you expect great connectivity from cameras of the manufacturer that is desperate to lock customers into their system?

Japanese companies are terrible SW manufacturers, they just do not get it, alas.

P.S. Speaking of small things being bad omens for the future: Canon's infamous "direct print" button and utterly-stubborn refusal to make MLU more accessible, while not all that important per se, show that the company clearly thinks it knows better than their customers what they need. Which, in turn, might as well be the reason why I'm now shooting Sony while my Canons are gathering dust.
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dwswager

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2016, 11:29:40 am »


I concluded, after a lengthy time, that it just isn't worth the bother using a cellphone for snaps. Fine for easy, never-to-be-processed visual references to things you want to buy in a hardware store and don't know how to describe precisely enough, but for 'serious' stuff - nope, not for me.

Cost me some work: a chap I know who's familiar with my website wanted to order some prints for a yacht - distressed paint - and I had to turn him down because there's no way I could make a decent job of making display prints from this kind of source.

I stopped wasting time there and then.

http://www.roma57.com/cellpix.html

Rob C

I hear ya!  I cringe every time I hear someone ask what POS camera should they buy for their trip of a lifetime!  If photography is your passion, then the correct answer to that is the best damn camera you can physically lug.  It's like working out:  You hate it for the 5 hours a week you're doing it, but are glad you did for the other 163!

My daughter is playing a soccer tournament in Spain this summer and my wife is going to throw a Sh!t fit when I whip out both the D500 and D810.  I'll shoot the soccer action with the D500, but for everything else, I will lug the D810.  And for every minute after the trip ends, I will be thankful I did!  And if I don't have a clean shirt, I'm OK, cause my tripod will fit in my suitcase!
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eronald

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2016, 12:50:29 pm »

Actually, most times I find the cellphone much more useful than the camera because people let me use it, including places where photography is "forbidden" like museums or in my kid's school.  Never a stare, never any issues, never a complaint, and perfect spontaneous images. I just would like a "cellphone" that takes really good pictures, ie with a real 2x zoom and stabilisation.

The problems I have run into with cameras in public in France are unbelievable. I've had people run after me in the street because I photographed their building, or their shop window, and was once stopped by the guards from photographing the Louvre pyramid because my equipment was "professional" and there is -no joke- a law that forbids photography of even the outsides of national museums.

Where the "big" camera shines is in forcing people to concentrate for portraits or documentary stuff. And then the bigger, the better. The larger the lenshood and the front element the better.

I've used everything from ancient plate cameras to MF digital, and IMHO the best images came from the large format plate cams, and from my digital Leica M8, which would hang whenever it could find an excuse. And even the Leica is too much camera to show around.

Edmund

I hear ya!  I cringe every time I hear someone ask what POS camera should they buy for their trip of a lifetime!  If photography is your passion, then the correct answer to that is the best damn camera you can physically lug.  It's like working out:  You hate it for the 5 hours a week you're doing it, but are glad you did for the other 163!

My daughter is playing a soccer tournament in Spain this summer and my wife is going to throw a Sh!t fit when I whip out both the D500 and D810.  I'll shoot the soccer action with the D500, but for everything else, I will lug the D810.  And for every minute after the trip ends, I will be thankful I did!  And if I don't have a clean shirt, I'm OK, cause my tripod will fit in my suitcase!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 12:55:19 pm by eronald »
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Rob C

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2016, 03:03:19 pm »

It's a matter of perception: nobody (yet?) sees a cellphone as threat: from the average Joe's experience, it doesn't do much that's going to hurt 'em or exploit 'em. Maybe private detectives use them today...

What, apart from the filter issues, was wrong with the M8 that it went on strike? Was it a special French issue? It's been suggested it would make a very good black/white camera.

Rob C

John Koerner

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2016, 03:28:08 pm »

Actually, most times I find the cellphone much more useful than the camera because people let me use it, including places where photography is "forbidden" like museums or in my kid's school.  Never a stare, never any issues, never a complaint, and perfect spontaneous images. I just would like a "cellphone" that takes really good pictures, ie with a real 2x zoom and stabilisation.

The problems I have run into with cameras in public in France are unbelievable. I've had people run after me in the street because I photographed their building, or their shop window, and was once stopped by the guards from photographing the Louvre pyramid because my equipment was "professional" and there is -no joke- a law that forbids photography of even the outsides of national museums.

Where the "big" camera shines is in forcing people to concentrate for portraits or documentary stuff. And then the bigger, the better. The larger the lenshood and the front element the better.

I've used everything from ancient plate cameras to MF digital, and IMHO the best images came from the large format plate cams, and from my digital Leica M8, which would hang whenever it could find an excuse. And even the Leica is too much camera to show around.

Edmund

Edward;

It is for these reasons that my brother and his family decided not to buy a dedicated camera (one, so as not to carry paperweight around his neck), and the other reason is because tourists taking photos with cell phones is "okay," "cute," unobtrusive in the public's eye.

Jack
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John Koerner

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2016, 03:33:30 pm »

Maybe private detectives use them today...

I can assure you that they do ;)

Walking around with a cell phone, having a "mock conversation," while actually taking photos is a common surveillance trick. This can be done while running video, also.

However, one has to be careful about the laws (which vary by state).

It is illegal in many states to capture a person speaking on recording, yet taking silent video footage of them (or still photos) is okay, so long as they are visible from a public place where you have a right to be. Taking audible recordings, documenting a person's conversation, however, without his/her permission, can get you in trouble ... whereas your silent surveillance camera captures their movements, or still photo camera, is perfectly okay to do.

Funny but true,

Jack
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eronald

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2016, 05:12:34 pm »

It's a matter of perception: nobody (yet?) sees a cellphone as threat: from the average Joe's experience, it doesn't do much that's going to hurt 'em or exploit 'em. Maybe private detectives use them today...

What, apart from the filter issues, was wrong with the M8 that it went on strike? Was it a special French issue? It's been suggested it would make a very good black/white camera.

Rob C

Typical event:
Check camera, meet model, go to location, camera goes on strike.
Check camera, go on press trip, camera goes on strike.

It's a latchup phenomenon which is somehow related to bad batteries, and in my experience occurs when one takes several shots in quick succession.
Leica advice: Take battery out of camera and wait 24 hours. Very funny.
Actually if one has a "good" fresh battery people say one can restart the camera.

I still have the M8, but now the sensor has a bad column ...

Edmund

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JV

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2016, 06:56:50 pm »

Leica only makes 2 top 10 primes, while Nikon makes 4.

Given that LenScore only tested 12 Leica lenses and 40+ Nikon lenses and 40+ Canon lenses that is not too bad I guess...

Also, as all 4 Nikon lenses are 200mm or longer, it is a bit comparing apples to oranges IMO...

That being said, LenScore does seem to do a decent job I have the impression and claim to be independent which increases their credibility.

I would love to see them test the 24-90mm and 90-280mm zoom lenses for the Leica SL.

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John Koerner

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2016, 07:31:27 pm »

Given that LenScore only tested 12 Leica lenses and 40+ Nikon lenses and 40+ Canon lenses that is not too bad I guess...

True.


Also, as all 4 Nikon lenses are 200mm or longer, it is a bit comparing apples to oranges IMO...

I would say that a lot more work goes in to making a 200-800mm into an exquisite lens than a 50mm ...



That being said, LenScore does seem to do a decent job I have the impression and claim to be independent which increases their credibility.

Agree 100%.

I like their transparency and simplicity as to method, as well as their marks as to which categories a given lens excels (or fails) at (e.g., bokeh, sharpness, etc.).



I would love to see them test the 24-90mm and 90-280mm zoom lenses for the Leica SL.

I'd love to see them all up there :)

They will test a lens you send them, I think.

They don't even test my old all-manual lenses, but I'd sure like to see how they scored too.
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Theodoros

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2016, 07:59:59 pm »

IMO, it is best if Nikon "breaks" internally to two companies... One aimed for the DSLR market and the other for the rest of the stuff they make... Then the DSLR division, should have a subdivision that would concentrate to the up to D5xxx products and respective lenses and let the rest to design the policy on information coming straight from prosumer needs...

There are also immediate actions that should be made...

1. Rename the D500 to D9xxx, the D750 to D6xx, the D620 to D4xx and perhaps introduce a (FF) D2xx line too...
2. Convert all lenses to E-series lenses and bring the aperture ring back exactly as it is with the PCE lenses...
3. Introduce a D811 that would be the same as the D810 but with the sensor of the DF...
4. Start preparing the D6 on the D800 body,  but with interchangeable finders, screens and sensors (slotted in by the left side of the camera) and then offer sensors of high res (that would make it an D6X), low res/fast/LL (that would make it a D6S), B&W sensor (that would make it D6BW), Astrophotography sensor (that would make it D6A), video dedicated sensor (that would make it D6C) and so on... Just my two cents...
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JV

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2016, 08:03:36 pm »

I would say that a lot more work goes in to making a 200-800mm into an exquisite lens than a 50mm ...

My point was more, if you need a 50mm lens you are not going to buy a 200-800mm one...  You really only want to compare with other 50mm (or close enough focal length) lenses...

And I would say it is probably more difficult to make a quality wide-angle lens as none of them seem to do particularly well...

Additional point, lenses like the Noctilux 0.95 are really specialty lenses designed to be shot wide open, nobody really cares how they perform stopped down...
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Rob C

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2016, 10:22:34 am »

Typical event:
Check camera, meet model, go to location, camera goes on strike.
Check camera, go on press trip, camera goes on strike.

It's a latchup phenomenon which is somehow related to bad batteries, and in my experience occurs when one takes several shots in quick succession.
Leica advice: Take battery out of camera and wait 24 hours. Very funny.
Actually if one has a "good" fresh battery people say one can restart the camera.

I still have the M8, but now the sensor has a bad column ...

Edmund


Are those models able to be returned to Papa for free replacement sensors? If so, might be worth your while, even if only for 'collectability' value some day. You are still a young man - worth holding and waiting (the camera, I mean).

Rob C
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 05:07:32 pm by Rob C »
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BrianVS

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2016, 06:35:22 pm »

Rob, just go and buy an old Leica R9 and DMR with the right screen and you will be as close to heaven as you can get without dying ...If your eyes are really good enough to still do MF. You could even go and get one of those old F5 Frankencameras ie Kodak 760 or Kodak 770.

I thought the old Powerbooks I used as a journalist were better for writing. SO I went and restored an 80s PB180, using my skills as an engineer, and you know what - it really was as good as I remembered.

Edmund

Powerbook 180- 1992? About as old as my DCS200ir, which I also keep running.

My favorite computer is the Micron Trek II, Pentium II- circa 1998. Four of the original batteries still hold full charge. Don't make them like they used to. My Lab is like Wall-E's van, full of spare parts.
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eronald

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2016, 02:24:35 am »

Powerbook 180- 1992? About as old as my DCS200ir, which I also keep running.

My favorite computer is the Micron Trek II, Pentium II- circa 1998. Four of the original batteries still hold full charge. Don't make them like they used to. My Lab is like Wall-E's van, full of spare parts.

I got a new battery for the PB and also integrated an SSD. I still need to build some sort of serial link to make it easier to get files off this thing. Be aware that the small (laptop) old disks are basically guaranteed to fail - I have something like 6 Powerbooks of that vintage and all have issues. The big disks seem to live forever.

What are you doing with your DCS?

Edmund
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Hywel

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2016, 04:20:30 pm »

I can't really think of anything Nikon could bring out that would make me switch.

But then I didn't think I would be sinking a ton of money into a Sony system until they brought out the A7Rii, either.

I'm with Cooter on the need for stills/video convergence. Any modern system with the readout speed for LiveView has the potential to record video. If you're going to do it, do the best job of it you can. Even though stills camera ergonomics aren't ideal for shooting video, a bit of thought and firmware can go a long long way to helping (peaking, audio levels, RGB histogram with clip warnings, log gammas, log gamma with R, G, B channels encoded separately so you can white balance in post, suitable video modes for AF and IS, etc.) I'll be interested to see how good a job Hasselblad have done with video on the H6D.

If I'm going on a stills shoot I take the Hasselblad.

If I'm going on a video shoot I take the RED.

But I take the Sony A7RII to every shoot, every time. I need to travel light, I'll take just the Sony. (OK so I also throw in a 7D or GH4 and a boggo standard zoom since I have them lying around, so I have a backup. When Sony comes out with an A7Riii I'll buy that and use A7Rii as backup.)

Two cases versus five makes a hell of a difference flying out somewhere to shoot, and even in the UK can make the difference between taking my car and needing to hire a van.

Now if only I could get continuous lighting kit that would genuinely do for both highest-quality stills and video, I'd be super happy.

Maybe Nikon should start making really, really good lights :-)

Cheers, Hywel
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 02:50:56 am by Hywel »
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Colorado David

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2016, 06:51:45 pm »

Canon could shut down their camera business (still and video) and they would still have their printers and scanners. Not as big as the camera division, but I'm sure that segment makes a good profit too.

Nikon does make some interesting products for scientific and industrial applications, but no one is buying those products for their home or small business, so not a lot of sales there.

Nikon also has the Sport Optics Division making rifle scopes, binoculars, and spotting scopes.  I have no idea what kind of volume they do.  They make some very nice binoculars and spotting scopes although nothing that approaches a Swarovski or Leica quality product.  They also don't cost as much as the Swarovski products.  There were a number of years where they were very actively sponsoring outdoor television and giving sport optic product to journalists.

GrahamBy

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2016, 07:16:14 am »

It's a matter of perception: nobody (yet?) sees a cellphone as threat:

Some do. The only time I've observed someone chase a photographer down the street, she was using a phone. She had just taken a photo through the window of a fashion/design store with very prominent "no photography" signs, so it wasn't unexpected.

I've never been hassled in Paris, although I tend to avoid the most obvious tourist spots and I've never tried setting up a tripod. Just happens not to be my style. Given that at the moment you can end up in a coma for taking photographs that the riot police don't appreciate (of them body-slamming a woman over a railing, for eg) and the general level of post-terrorist pre-football security paranoia, I'll be sticking to less obvious targets.
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Rob C

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2016, 07:45:44 am »

Some do. The only time I've observed someone chase a photographer down the street, she was using a phone. She had just taken a photo through the window of a fashion/design store with very prominent "no photography" signs, so it wasn't unexpected.

I've never been hassled in Paris, although I tend to avoid the most obvious tourist spots and I've never tried setting up a tripod. Just happens not to be my style. Given that at the moment you can end up in a coma for taking photographs that the riot police don't appreciate (of them body-slamming a woman over a railing, for eg) and the general level of post-terrorist pre-football security paranoia, I'll be sticking to less obvious targets.

Putting up a 'no photos' sign in a fashion shop is crazy: the moment the product's out there so are the pirates - probably right from the first PR handout that hits the press, if not earlier due to industrial espionage before the fact.

I wouldn't put so much emphasis on riot police behaviour: having watched a lot of France24 since I decided that I hated Sky News, I've noted that a lot of the folks they have to deal with come very well prepared for battle. I have seen females as active as their boyfriends; in some areas of violence women are more to be feared than men. Regarding the innocent bystanders: unless on your way to work, why would you gather at a place everyone knows is going to be a trouble spot? To be entertained? To play at war photographer? To post pictures of your heroism online? Few innocents around, I fear.

As for security due to bloody football: easy solution would be to have none, and let the inevitable happen and piss the world off the entire sorry industry. The concept of grow men kicking balls around and getting paid for it as they do seems strangely otherworldly. Just like most other so-called sport, really; great for schoolchildren but more than as little iffy for adults. But of course, it would only be the politicians and security people that would get the stick, not those advocting less efficacy of effort. Maybe the floods are a heavenly warning... loved the bit about hotel prices for the period: some are sold out at well over 100% above normal room charges; sport is love.

;-)

Rob

stevesanacore

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2016, 12:48:41 am »

I think the very nature of zooms makes their quality insufficient, Rob.

It is hard enough to make high-end primes, at one focal length, let alone to have that quality span the transition of several focal lengths.

I much prefer shooting primes now, for this reason.

I have also found that "24-70" is a negligible difference in positioning oneself, as far as framing goes.

There is no reason I need a zoom in this range, when walking a bit forward will suffice :)

John, Have you tried a Canon 5DSr with the 24-70 2.8II? In my experience, the Canon 24-70 2.8II is as sharp or sharper than most primes, that is why it's such a big deal. I also like primes but the 24-70 is THE most important lens to most working pros. To say you can use a 50 and just move closer or farther away is silly as pro's don't always have that option. A small space requires a wide shot and 70mm gets you nice compression quickly when you want it.

According to one very respected reviewer, the new Sony 24-70mm 2.8 is the first zoom that tests better than the Canon, which had set the bar since it's release a a few years ago. The new Canon 11-24 is also the first WA zoom to outperform the Nikon 14-24 which was the best for a while. As great as you think Nikon is, to me, the evidence is not there to support it. I do think the D810 is a great body, but not good enough to make up for the other issues for what I shoot. I have no personal attachment to any brand at all, I just buy or rent the best tool for the job and for me and many others, Nikon isn't it.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in trouble?
« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2016, 02:12:17 am »

According to one very respected reviewer, the new Sony 24-70mm 2.8 is the first zoom that tests better than the Canon, which had set the bar since it's release a a few years ago. The new Canon 11-24 is also the first WA zoom to outperform the Nikon 14-24 which was the best for a while. As great as you think Nikon is, to me, the evidence is not there to support it. I do think the D810 is a great body, but not good enough to make up for the other issues for what I shoot. I have no personal attachment to any brand at all, I just buy or rent the best tool for the job and for me and many others, Nikon isn't it.

We all have different needs, you obviously know best what works for you. I also find the enthousiasm of our friend John/Jack a bit over the top. It was over the top when he was shooting Canon and it still is over the top now that he is shooting Nikon. ;)

As far as the 24-70 f2.8 lenses go, I have been using the new Nikon VR version on the D5 and it is a very good lens, much better in real world use than the lukewarm test results led me to believe. The look is nice, it is a sharp lens that is overall well behaved... and the AF is extremely fast. It is the first time I see a general purpose lens that focuses as fast as the super tele lenses, be it in very low light. Truly impressive in my book.



VR also helps in some circumpstances and had a major impact on the lens design, so its a bit hard to compare apple to apple with lenses not featuring VR. We'll have to see whether Canon can/wants to maintain the level of optical quality of the current 24-70 f2.8 II after adding VR and an AF of similar capability. I sure hope they do but we'll only know when the lens hits the market some day. Sony is obviously benefiting from their startegic investement in sensor bases stabilisation and it is clearly the better way forward since it keeps lens design simpler.

Not trying to change your mind or to paint Nikon in a special light, just sharing my first hand experience with this lens that is IMHO under-estimated by many.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 02:19:12 am by BernardLanguillier »
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