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Author Topic: Good Edge on Dibond  (Read 7178 times)

Brad P

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Good Edge on Dibond
« on: May 26, 2016, 06:06:31 pm »

Anyone have a view on

(1) Whether the Fletcher FSC or Keencut Excaliber makes cleaner cuts, particularly regarding not rounding edges and compressing corners?

(2) Properly adjusted and operated, whether it's even possible with one of these cutters to avoid rounded edges or compressed corners? 

(3) Whether a Festool TS 55 EQ does a noticeably superior job.  It looks like more of a hassle to set up and operate in my constrained workspaces so is a less preferred alternative unless the edge is considerably better.

ADDENDUM:  (4) Since starting this post, I've seen a local sign maker rough cut E-Panel with a panel saw, adhere paper to the E-Panel, then finish his edges very nicely.   To finish his edges, he uses a Ridgid 6-Amp 6-1/8 in. free standing corded Ridgid Jointer/Planer (about $600), but swapped out the three factory knives for three Whiteside 6904 carbide knives (about $170).  I don't know how this would work with Dibond, Canson Platine and/or Rag Photographique and I may ask him to put an edge on one of my pictures to test it, but I imagine it should work just fine.   Any thoughts on this solution (or equipment substitutions?).  I suspect a free standing 200 lb. unit like the Ridgid would be about the minimum for 4 foot edges, and that a smaller and less expensive jointer like Porter Cable's 10-amp bench jointer might be a little small, but always interested in saving space and money if anyone uses that.

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 05:33:07 pm by Brad P »
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dgberg

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Re: Blade Cutters for 3mm Dibond (and is Festool noticeably better)
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2016, 10:15:06 pm »

Can only answer about the Festool as I have one.
The edge is a good edge but not perfect. Super sharp and does need filing.
Even with that good blade it leaves the saw marks.
If you are framing it doesn't matter.
When I am doing a mount with the edges showing I have a large 42" edge sander and bump all 4 sides with that before filing.

Brad P

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Re: Blade Cutters for 3mm Dibond (and is Festool noticeably better)
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2016, 02:15:36 am »

Thanks Dan.  I've just got over having to buy and use one of these three machines, had the most confidence actually in a Festool, and now you suggest a 42" sander.  Thanks for that!

Seriously now, what type of sander do you use?  I am trying to get art (not production) worthy edges, and my supplier is not trainable. 

Thanks
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dgberg

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Re: Blade Cutters for 3mm Dibond (and is Festool noticeably better)
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2016, 11:53:58 am »

If you have one of the commercial units, I think Keencut you should get perfect edges. Clean up the sharp edges with a file.
I use gatorboard for everything that goes in a frame.
We use dibond for larger panos and dibond only when it is not framed.
I have a cabinet shop and really need the edge sander for it.
Might be overkill for you as it is a $3,000 machine.
Look into the aluminum edge strips from Harbor Sales in Md. if you live in the USA.  (Profile?)
They are great for the sides, no edge work necessary. You can just lightly file the top and bottom edges for safety, no one can see them.
Can also make a nice little frame like the one on the right.
I personally like one strip on either side plus a standout frame attached to the back.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2016, 06:16:02 am by Dan Berg »
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azmike

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Re: Blade Cutters for 3mm Dibond (and is Festool noticeably better)
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2016, 02:17:25 pm »

Brad,

I'd suggest that you get a sheet of Dibond that you plan to use and experiment with it.  Have the supplier/sign shop cut it with their Fletcher or Kleencut and look at the edges.  Then laminate a print on the Dibond and trim to finished size using the Fletcher/Kleencut and see if you like the results.  The ability to make a nice edge with the print laminated is a time saver (compared to cutting the Dibond to finished size with a saw, sanding the edges, then laminating the print, and then trimming the print to the Dibond edges).  You really don't want to buy a $2500 cutter without knowing how well it will work for you.

I solved a lot of my uncertainties by just buying a sheet and began messing with it.

Mike Coffey
Prescott, Arizona

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stcstc31

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Re: Blade Cutters for 3mm Dibond (and is Festool noticeably better)
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2016, 05:52:18 am »

the issue with both the fletcher and keencut machines. FSC and steeltrak. are that the acm cutter actually rounds the edge slightly and if you look at the surface there is a slight rounded lift. meaning i found mounting to it the edge wasnt the best

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Stephen Crozier

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jtmiller

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Re: Blade Cutters for 3mm Dibond (and is Festool noticeably better)
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2016, 09:52:20 am »

STC

So what do you use and recommend?

Thanks

jim
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Brad P

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Re: Blade Cutters for 3mm Dibond (and is Festool noticeably better)
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2016, 01:58:06 pm »

the issue with both the fletcher and keencut machines. FSC and steeltrak. are that the acm cutter actually rounds the edge slightly and if you look at the surface there is a slight rounded lift. meaning i found mounting to it the edge wasnt the best

I read other older posts where several people point out this rounding effect of ACM cutters. However, the consensus view seems to be it is only one side. I suppose I could mount to the flat edge, direct the rounded edge to the rear, and live with that if it was a clean looking edge otherwise and the corners aren't crushed.

In one of the posts, someone claimed that adjusting the blade properly would result in no rounding effect. Does anyone have any experience with that result? If so what is the secret to the adjustment?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 02:20:03 pm by Brad P »
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Brad P

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OK - From all accounts and pictures I have seen on other posts, there appear to be imperfections in the edge using blade cutters or a Festool.  From reports I read hear and elsewhere, blade cutters leave an indentation on at least one side and is especially tricky at the corners.  A Festool may do a good, maybe better job but leaves irregular edges that need to be filed smooth, and appears to also leave some marks in the core.

One person mentioned using a 42" sander to sand down the sides.  I hadn't thought of that but understand how that might work well.  My local supplier uses a panel saw to cut dibond, and I suppose I could use a large 42" sander like that to remove many imperfections.  Any one else use a large sander like this to good effect?  They can be expensive and consume a fair amount of space, so if there's any smaller sanding device that works nearly as well I'm all ears. 
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Ernst Dinkla

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OK - From all accounts and pictures I have seen on other posts, there appear to be imperfections in the edge using blade cutters or a Festool.  From reports I read hear and elsewhere, blade cutters leave an indentation on at least one side and is especially tricky at the corners.  A Festool may do a good, maybe better job but leaves irregular edges that need to be filed smooth, and appears to also leave some marks in the core.

One person mentioned using a 42" sander to sand down the sides.  I hadn't thought of that but understand how that might work well.  My local supplier uses a panel saw to cut dibond, and I suppose I could use a large 42" sander like that to remove many imperfections.  Any one else use a large sander like this to good effect?  They can be expensive and consume a fair amount of space, so if there's any smaller sanding device that works nearly as well I'm all ears.

As you know now I always have an alternative for the generally accepted methods :-)

I thought if I cut through one layer of aluminium the e-panel or whatever brand composite it probably can be broken. Searching whether that has been done by others already, I saw some threads in the sign web sites that described it. They used Keencut Javelins etc with a Stanley blade or similar to score the aluminium, up to 3mm DiBond as I understand it.

I ended up with a 5' long and heavy, L shaped aluminium profile + 2 clamps + table with a steel top edge + a Sencys knife with 25mm wide blades (the sword of snap-off-blade knives) + a 4 feet long light wooden beam. All available already, the knife was bought after all kinds of other knives showed flaws for this method. Scoring, breaking, bending/fatiguing the other alu layer is all done at the same spot after the sheet is clamped up at the table's steel edge with the alu profile. The beam used to apply even pressure on the 4' wide overhanging e-panel for the break (+ bending several times) so it it will not be warped. A thinner blade cutter to cut through the remaining back side protection foil. The edges are not usable for display so have to be sanded but for me it is different, the print is laminated first and then every edge is cut off with the board cutter, 5-7mm waste there. Perfect edge in my opinion, slight bending of the alu edge at the lamination side is acceptable. Like with using a circular saw all the separated pieces remain plane, something that is not happening with rotary cutters. The shop stays clean, no saw dust. With e-panel cuts that have to be wider than 4' and for larger e-panel sizes I use an ordinary circular saw outdoors to make the first cuts to handier sizes. 5' x 10' e-panels are sometimes more economic.

Contemplating an all steps integrated, vertical version of this tool with air pressure clamping. I know I can design and make it but it has to be sensible in relation with the amount of work I actually do in e-panel mounting. There is a nice DIY canvas stretcher/mounter here that cost me a fortnight to make and is hardly ever used after I made the 75 canvasses it was made for :-) Enjoyed the work though.


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stcstc31

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like ernst

i use score and snap. actually use the acrylic scoring blade in my fletcher, then a stanley blade

i then deburr  using a deburring tool. like sign makers do. if it needs anything better, i stick it on the desktop sander, generally it doesnt though

the rounding is because of the way the roller bladed work in the steeltrack and fsc cutters
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Stephen Crozier

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Brad P

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. . . for me it is different, the print is laminated first and then every edge is cut off with the board cutter, 5-7mm waste there. Perfect edge in my opinion, slight bending of the alu edge at the lamination side is acceptable. Like with using a circular saw all the separated pieces remain plane, something that is not happening with rotary cutters. The shop stays clean, no saw dust.

You are always at the cutting edge, Meener Dinkla!  This looks like a very interesting method and could avoid difficult-to-cut edges with Canson Platine.   I am impressed that you can cut the edges and lose only 5-7 mm of material.  What tool do you use to make the cut?   Can a Fletcher FSC or Keencut Excaliber make such a fine close-to-the-edge cut?  I have read of problems where these particular tools are used in such a manner.  A few people have written that they require much more wasted material or the blade tends to roll off the edge. 
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Brad P

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Re: Good Edge on Dibond
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 05:13:43 pm »

Since starting this post, I've seen a local sign maker rough cut E-Panel with a panel saw, adhere paper to the E-Panel, then finish his edges very nicely. 

To finish his edges, he uses a Ridgid 6-Amp 6-1/8 in. free standing corded Ridgid Jointer/Planer (about $600), but swapped out the three factory knives for three Whiteside 6904 carbide knives (about $170).  I don't know how this would work with Dibond, Canson Platine and/or Rag Photographique and I may ask him to put an edge on one of my pictures to test it, but I imagine it should work just fine. 

Any thoughts on this solution (or equipment substitutions?). 

I suspect a free standing 200 lb. unit like the Ridgid would be about the minimum for 4 foot edges, and that a smaller and less expensive jointer like Porter Cable's 10-amp bench jointer might be a little small, but always interested in saving space and money if anyone uses that.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 05:25:01 pm by Brad P »
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dgberg

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Re: Good Edge on Dibond
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2016, 05:22:36 pm »

It may work?
I have an 8" jointer with helical carbide head and have tried it on gatorboard but not dibond. (Head needs to be kept sharp for wood.)
With paper or canvas attached to gator it tears up the edge of the paper or canvas slightly.
For me it did not matter as the gator was going in a frame and just needed to be made slightly smaller.
I'm guessing the jointer can give supper smooth edges but I would edge it without the print on it.
It is super easy to mount the print after getting your good dibond edge.
Flip it over and trim with a razor, that's pretty easy.

Brad P

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Re: Good Edge on Dibond
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2016, 05:31:53 pm »

Thanks Dan - that could be the solution too... The Platine in particular can be a bear to cut perfectly and it would be nice if it could be fine tune finished with the jointer, but if your experience is otherwise, then maybe that's the necessary workflow.
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jtmiller

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Re: Good Edge on Dibond
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2016, 06:47:49 pm »

We recently went to a sign shop who did some cuts for us on 3mm Dibond so we could start experimenting with it. The panels were delivered perfectly rectangular as shown by measuring the diagonals. The edges were very clean but sharp so will need just a touch of a swiss file to soften them. Accuracy and edge quality were a big issue for us and we were glad to see that. There was no visible rounding.

They used what they call a "jump shear". I'll get a look at it when I go there next. These panels were cut from a single 4x8ft sheet and two were 3ftx4ft, two were 18"x24" and a remaining scrap.

They did manage to dent two corners on one piece by mishandling but I'll use that panel for experiments so no problem this time. I'll speak to them about more care in handling before the "real" order.

For stiffening and providing a surface to carry the float frame we'll be using 1" x 1/8" aluminum L attached by 1" 3M VHB (4919F) tape. The L sections will form a rectangle and be attached to one another with L brackets. I expect that frame to be 2ftx3ft in size on a 3ftx4ft panel. (Her artwork varies in size so this is just a useful test size.)

The side L pieces will have wood attached by screws which will extend to near the top and bottom panel edges vertically and will provide the four mounting points for a decorative float frame which will hide the edges and the aluminum structure on the back.

The mounting to the wall will likely be via a wood cleat also mounted to those two vertical wood pieces.

Total depth should be on the order of 1.5". Panel will be recessed from the float frame front by 1/8" or so. Gutter will probably be 3/16".

Sign shop used was Signs by Tomorrow which is a chain here in Maryland. Katie's artwork can be seen at www.artistkatiemiller.com.

I'll post again when we have some test panels completed.

jim

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