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Author Topic: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?  (Read 13229 times)

wing1

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Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« on: May 24, 2016, 08:04:27 am »

Here a Sony communication after the Japan earthquake:
In addition, Sony decided to terminate the development and manufacturing of high-functionality camera modules for external sale, the mass production of which was being prepared at the Kumamoto Technology Center, as a result of a reconsideration of the strategy of this business from a long-term perspective. Approximately 30 billion yen in expense is expected to be incurred due to this termination.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 08:53:08 am »

This statement does not refer to the manufacturing of medium format sensors as used in Phase/Hassy digital backs.

eronald

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 12:35:45 pm »

This statement does not refer to the manufacturing of medium format sensors as used in Phase/Hassy digital backs.

Whatever. This highlights the fact that Phase and Hasselblad now survive on Sony's terms; and Sony's priorities.

Edmund
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2016, 12:46:05 pm »

Whatever. This highlights the fact that Phase and Hasselblad now survive on Sony's terms; and Sony's priorities.

But Edmund, how is that any different for Phase and Hasselblad (and Pentax) compared to all those others who use Sony's "high-functionality camera modules" ?

AFAIK Sony also makes the sensors for a number of Canon P/S cameras and Nikon cameras, and ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 01:30:55 pm »

Whatever. This highlights the fact that Phase and Hasselblad now survive on Sony's terms; and Sony's priorities.

Please let me know which camera company has used more brands/sources for sensors than Team Phase One over their history. They've used sensors from just about everyone, selecting the best sensors available at any given time, including designing/commissioning their own sensors as needed (the sensors in the IQ360 and IQ380 were co-designed by and exclusive to, Phase One).

Please let me know a camera company shipping a camera with a better sensor than that in the IQ3 100mp.

You have to squint *really* hard to see anything besides a very good situation (both in absolute and relative terms) for Phase One over the last several years. They've never been in a position this strong.

eronald

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 04:57:17 pm »

Doug, the issue is not whether anyone has a better sensor, the issue is whether there is another possible sensor source for Phase and Hassy. I guess Dalsa and whatever the former Kodak house is called now can both create a sensor and have it fabbed, as they make military and remote sensing sensors, but they won't be able to do the nice focus-pixel stuff that is needed for mirrorless, they won't be able to do video,  and they won't be drop in designs for the existing software.

Phase and Hassy are now in a very precarious place. If Sony *need* to make 50 million iphone sensors in 6 months they may decide getting the 100MP fab up is simply to much trouble, during this time frame, and pay the million dollar penalty this entails to get out. Not that they would,pay it, their insurance company would pay it.

Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Panasonic compacts and dSLRs  etc all have multiple sources available - or in the case of Canon a complete inhouse solution, up to and including masks and fab. Olympus uses Sony only, I believe, but they are part owned by ... Sony.

I see ... the aftermaths of an earthquake. I've been in a 7.5 and it teaches you to fear God, even if you are not a believer.

Edmund

PS Doug: Is the 100MP shipping again?

Please let me know which camera company has used more brands/sources for sensors than Team Phase One over their history. They've used sensors from just about everyone, selecting the best sensors available at any given time, including designing/commissioning their own sensors as needed (the sensors in the IQ360 and IQ380 were co-designed by and exclusive to, Phase One).

Please let me know a camera company shipping a camera with a better sensor than that in the IQ3 100mp.

You have to squint *really* hard to see anything besides a very good situation (both in absolute and relative terms) for Phase One over the last several years. They've never been in a position this strong.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 05:06:56 pm by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 05:52:34 pm »

In case Sony stops the supply, both Phase One and Hasselblad will be in big trouble, but the whole MF market too... I believe it will shrink to an extend that no recovery can be... The market won't go back to CCD sensors...

I also believe that if a supplier for a new CMOS sensor will be found, (there are two or three sources other than Sony) it won't supply both makers... It will be an exclusive sensor to one maker... So there are two sources that should be found... The problem with these suppliers, is that one needs "references from other" already existing customer of theirs, so that they then will accept to produce exclusive sensor for a customer... This is due to the fact that those (other than Sony) that make MF size CMos sensors are currently making them for the cinema industry where the competition is high and the know how valuable.

I believe that both Hasselblad & Phase One should have opt for an exclusive to them sensor by now... Leica has done it and they where very wise in doing so, I believe (I've said that before) that Hasselblad is working on the matter for sometime now (the colaboration with Arri & then the partnership with DJI, also the newly introduced video RAW process software and the introduction of H6D with video suggest that)... I don't know what P1 has in its sleeve, but if Hasselblad has already find a source and Leica/Sinar another... Surely the number of sources have been shrunk considerably. 

Anyway, either if Sony continues to make the sensors or not, MF makers have to look for exclussive to them Cmos solutions... the sooner they do, the better for them.
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Kevin Raber

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 06:01:20 pm »

Let's put this one to rest.  I have spoken to sources that know and the medium format chip business is very important to Sony and they will not stop making these chips.  Yes the earthquake caused some shipping delays but things are coming back on line.  So, bottom line nothing changes.   
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NickT

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 07:03:03 pm »

Let's put this one to rest.

What, and stop the Edmund and Theo show? Where's the fun in that?  ;D
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eronald

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 07:37:40 pm »

What, and stop the Edmund and Theo show? Where's the fun in that?  ;D

As commanded we will move to another play in our repertoire :)

Edmund
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BJL

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Sony stop to make camera modules for phones, machine vision etc.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 07:38:22 pm »

Here a Sony communication after the Japan earthquake:
In addition, Sony decided to terminate the development and manufacturing of high-functionality camera modules for external sale . . .
The words "camera modules" as opposed to "sensors" makes this sound like the integrated sensor+lens devices that Sony makes for use in phones, machine vision systems, and so on.  My read is that the numerous other companies now making these modules have turned it into a high-volume, low-margin, cheap-labor-dependent commodity market, so that Sony longer sees much potential for ROI.

It certainly does not sound like it has anything to do with sensors for medium format backs, even before Kevin's clarification.
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BobShaw

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 08:27:04 pm »

I remember as child my father replacing the valve radio we took camping with a Sony 6 transistor AM radio. Wow. Later on people bought Sony for the Trinitron monitors or the Bravia TVs or the Walkman tape and CD or Playstation game machines or whatever. The core business is that they are a high quality consumer electronics manufacturer. At the moment they are excited about camera sensors and even cameras, but how long will last until they get excited about something else?
That's why if I am interested in professional cameras I think Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad, Phase One, because imaging is their core business.
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uaiomex

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2016, 10:19:11 pm »

Wow, wow, wow. If this path continues in sensor fabrication, in no time the whole world of photography will stop breathing when the next Japan earthquake strikes. During the film years nothing even close ever happenned. With the exception of Fuji, all main film factories were in non quaky land.
May god protect Japan
Eduardo
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BJL

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Sony is not getting out of medium format sensors: read the thread!
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 02:43:13 pm »

Wow, wow, wow. If this path continues in sensor fabrication, in no time the whole world of photography will stop breathing when the next Japan earthquake strikes. During the film years nothing even close ever happenned. With the exception of Fuji, all main film factories were in non quaky land.
May god protect Japan
Eduardo
Relax: this is Sony getting out of the no-longer-profitable market for some of the camera+lens modules used in phones and such; the earthquake probably just put it over the edge from low profitability to not being worth the big expense of rebuilding the manufacturing lines, especially compared to the opportunity to reallocate that factory space to other more profitable products, like larger sensors for ILCs.
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Rob C

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 03:25:30 pm »

Wow, wow, wow. If this path continues in sensor fabrication, in no time the whole world of photography will stop breathing when the next Japan earthquake strikes. During the film years nothing even close ever happenned. With the exception of Fuji, all main film factories were in non quaky land.
May god protect Japan
Eduardo


Could this signal a return to the majesty of film?

I still have a mint F3, and of all my lenses, only one is a G! (And it's focal length is duplicated by a manual one.) I'm sniffing out of the window for the delightful, delicate hint of a Kodachrome leader...

;-)

Rob C

eronald

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 08:42:19 am »


Could this signal a return to the majesty of film?

I still have a mint F3, and of all my lenses, only one is a G! (And it's focal length is duplicated by a manual one.) I'm sniffing out of the window for the delightful, delicate hint of a Kodachrome leader...

;-)

Rob C

Yeah, but d'you still have the eyes you need for focusing that F3?
A big part of the success of AF has been that everyone buying an SLR these days is over 40 :)

Edmund
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Rob C

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2016, 09:14:06 am »

Yeah, but d'you still have the eyes you need for focusing that F3?
A big part of the success of AF has been that everyone buying an SLR these days is over 40 :)

Edmund


Ah, Edmund, the killer thrust from that fine Toledo blade!

Nope, I do not, which is the curse of glaucoma and age, and why I eventually bought an af 50mm Nikkor G, devoid of its better parts and film camera functionality.

BUT! My F3 has a split-image screen, and that's better than anything else, especially one of those damed green confirmation lights, that force one to look at the image as a whole, at the part of the image that matters, and try to ecompass all of that along with said green light outwith the image, without scanning and thus losing one's place in the moment!

Rob C

JoeKitchen

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2016, 09:53:50 am »



BUT! My F3 has a split-image screen, and that's better than anything else, especially one of those damed green confirmation lights, that force one to look at the image as a whole, at the part of the image that matters, and try to ecompass all of that along with said green light outwith the image, without scanning and thus losing one's place in the moment!

Rob C

It drives me insane that split prism screens are no longer standard!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2016, 11:42:20 am »

It drives me insane that split prism screens are no longer standard!

Hi Joe,

Standard? For which widest aperture (assuming focusing at fully opened aperture)?
Split/micro-prisms work best at a given aperture, and go dark when (usually) narrower apertures are used.

Cheers,
Bart
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eronald

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Re: Sony stop to make the medium format sensors?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2016, 01:13:29 pm »

I have a 1Ds3 which is just about the best viewfinder on any 35mm dSLR AFAIK, HUGE, but I still miss the bright subjective experience of the old VFs. I don't know whether it's the AF or some other design change.

Edmund

Hi Joe,

Standard? For which widest aperture (assuming focusing at fully opened aperture)?
Split/micro-prisms work best at a given aperture, and go dark when (usually) narrower apertures are used.

Cheers,
Bart
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