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Author Topic: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?  (Read 24127 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2016, 09:07:27 am »

... LR is the oddball and violates the user's innate and learned expectations...

Not for reasonable people, who have learned, through politics, that while we are all equal, some are more equal than the others ;)

In LR, with multiple images selected, one is always "more selected" than the others. This comes handy for stacking, for instance, as the one "more selected" becomes the image representing the collapsed stack. Or when Auto Sync is used, changed on the "more selected" image determine the changes for the other, also selected images.

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2016, 09:21:19 am »

Try switching to the grid view.  Then the change should apply to all the selected images

MDIJB

Unfortunately in Develop you can’t.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2016, 09:43:01 am »

If you want to apply the changes to all selected images in the Develop Module you need to activate Auto-Syng as it has been mentioned before.

Using the Second monitor function, which you can use even if you have only one monitor, you can use the grid view while in the develop module, but again, changes to multiple images require the auto-sync enabled.

digitaldog

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2016, 09:52:45 am »

The reason people easily forget they have 20 images selected is because LR violates standard conventions for clearing selections!
In every graphical interface that I have ever used (I do Human Reliability Analysis for military weapon systems), when a selection is active and the mouse is clicked anywhere in the frame (not the window) hosting the items, the selection is cleared.  If the click occurs on an actual item, it becomes the new selection
I totally agree and it's confusing until you 'learn' to do it 'their way'. They (Adobe) use the term "Most Selected*" which again, is an odd term and behavior! But it's how it works and once you learn this rather odd behavior, what else can you do but work with it?


* http://digital-photography-school.com/lightroom’s-selected-and-most-selected-images/
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dwswager

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2016, 09:56:35 am »

In LR, with multiple images selected, one is always "more selected" than the others. This comes handy for stacking, for instance, as the one "more selected" becomes the image representing the collapsed stack. Or when Auto Sync is used, changed on the "more selected" image determine the changes for the other, also selected images.

As I said before, I do not debate the benefits of being able to change the focus within an active selection. No other application or OS has that ability that I know of.

This selection behavior was tested in GRID view of Lightroom Library.  And it is precisely why Adobe designed the program not do apply actions following a selection automatically to all items in a selection and only apply them to the image that had the focus.  And then gave the ability to change that behavior.  They knew it would screw people up.  That people would assume they had changed the selection and not just the focus.

I'd be willing to bet, every other application on your system works as the attached image shows and not the way LR does it.  While there are clearly benefits to what LR is doing, there are also seen and unseen penalties, the magnitude of which depending on the user's situation.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2016, 09:58:28 am »

The reason people easily forget they have 20 images selected is because LR violates standard conventions for clearing selections!

No, it's because they can easily hide the film strip and often concentrate so much on the current image that is occupying the majority of the screen.

I'm not debating the merits of one method versus the other, only pointing out that LR is the oddball and violates the user's innate and learned expectations. 

Yes, Lr is an oddball and Adobe have taken a conservative approach. In Develop I'm actually a big advocate of AutoSync being the default (or even the only way to work), and I might have liked Library to be the same. A bit of "moral hazard" is good for you, isn't it? But I'm sure Adobe are right not to go that way - too many users fail to concentrate sufficiently to be aware how many images they've selected.
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dwswager

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2016, 10:08:42 am »

I totally agree and it's confusing until you 'learn' to do it 'their way'. They (Adobe) use the term "Most Selected*" which again, is an odd term and behavior! But it's how it works and once you learn this rather odd behavior, what else can you do but work with it?


* http://digital-photography-school.com/lightroom’s-selected-and-most-selected-images/

I agree, it is what it is.  One should try to maximize the benefits of the capability to change focus within  a selection while minimizing the penalty.

However, Adobe should have a clear statement up front in the manual that they have changed the nature and before of selections within LR.  I've now reviewed 2 different paid video courses on lightroom and neither of them brought this fact up!  This should probably be the first thing out of an instructors mouth in an introductory course.  This information is fundamental to using LR.  It is different than Ps, Br, ACR and any other application a user might have ever used.
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digitaldog

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2016, 01:41:24 pm »

However, Adobe should have a clear statement up front in the manual that they have changed the nature and before of selections within LR. 

What manual  ;D
They (Adobe) used to produce them, they were pretty good. At least that's how I had to teach myself Photoshop 1.0.7; no other alternative.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2016, 02:22:12 pm »

From Lightroom's FAQ, "Where can I find the user's manual?" "You can find web and PDF versions of the Lightroom manual on the Lightroom Help page."
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rdonson

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2016, 02:42:15 pm »

Personally, I think you'll find more and more easily organized by visiting Julianne's LR blog

http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/lightroom-training-videos

Other pay sources are KelbyOne and Lynda.com
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digitaldog

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2016, 02:51:26 pm »

From Lightroom's FAQ, "Where can I find the user's manual?" "You can find web and PDF versions of the Lightroom manual on the Lightroom Help page."
You probably haven’t been an Adobe customer long enough (like me) to have seen a real, Adobe manual.
Photoshop's 1.0.7 book (yes, it was printed and pretty large) was good enough for those of us who had nothing else to learn by, to figure out how to operate the app.
The last printed manual I can find is Photoshop 5.0 which was 384 pages!


BTW, the PDF is Adobe® Photoshop® Lightroom® CC Help
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:59:00 pm by digitaldog »
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john beardsworth

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2016, 03:01:55 pm »

From Lightroom's FAQ, "Where can I find the user's manual?" "You can find web and PDF versions of the Lightroom manual on the Lightroom Help page."
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digitaldog

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2016, 03:26:55 pm »

From Lightroom's FAQ, "Where can I find the user's manual?" "You can find web and PDF versions of the Lightroom manual on the Lightroom Help page."
MUCH, much better (and over 700 pages rather than 284 page PDF called Adobe® Photoshop® Lightroom® CC Help)by Victoria Bampton http://www.lightroomqueen.com :

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dwswager

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2016, 03:30:38 pm »

From Lightroom's FAQ, "Where can I find the user's manual?" "You can find web and PDF versions of the Lightroom manual on the Lightroom Help page."

I actually have some old Photoshop Manuals on my bookshelf.  And I reviewed this PDF before installing Lr.  On Page 98 in a section titled Select photos in the Grid view and the Filmstrip, it even discusses how selections work.  It tells you how it violates standard conventions without first highlighting that it does so.

Quote
When you have several photos selected, you can click any selected photo to make it active without deselecting the other photos.(pg98 Adobe Lr Help PDF)

Of course, I glossed over this section because having decades of experience using software, I know how to make and change selections with a mouse and keyboard.  I would have expected a prominent caution statement explaining that they were deviating from how selections are handled in Lr, versus all other software in the known world, including all other Adobe products.
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digitaldog

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2016, 03:40:04 pm »

And I reviewed this PDF before installing Lr.  On Page 98 in a section titled Select photos in the Grid view and the Filmstrip, it even discusses how selections work.  It tells you how it violates standard conventions without first highlighting that it does so.
Here's just some of how Victoria explains what I think we're talking about (and her ebook at $32 is worth every penny):



SELECTIONS
When you select multiple photos in Lightroom’s Grid view or in the Filmstrip, you’ll notice that the cell border displays in three different shades of gray.
Because Lightroom allows you to synchronize settings across multiple photos, there needs to be a way of choosing the source of the settings as well as the target photos, so Lightroom has three different levels of selection (or two levels of selection plus a deselected state, depending on how you look at it). (Figure 6.10)
• Active—The lightest shade of gray is the active photo. That’s the single photo that would be shown in Loupe view or Develop module.
• Selected—The mid gray is also selected, but it isn’t the active photo.
• Not Selected—The darkest shade of gray isn’t selected.

Anything you do in Grid view on the primary monitor, such as adding star ratings or keywords, applies to all the selected photos, whereas other views only affect the active or most-selected photo.
When applying settings, or especially when deleting photos, double check how many photos are selected, otherwise you could accidentally apply a command to all of them.
If you’re synchronizing settings across multiple photos, Lightroom takes the settings from the active photo and applies it to the other selected photos.
To select a single photo, you simply click on it. To select non- contiguous photos—ones that aren’t grouped together—click the  rst photo and then hold down the Ctrl key (Windows) / Cmd key (Mac) while clicking on the other photos. To select sequential photos, click on the  rst photo, but this time hold down the Shift key while you click on the last photo, and the photos in between will also be selected.
There’s also a trick to deselecting photos. Clicking on the thumbnail itself retains your current selection and makes that the active photo, leaving the others selected too. But if you click on the cell border surrounding the thumbnail, the other photos are deselected, leaving just that single photo selected.
The thumbnails give you a good overview, but they’re a little too small to see the detail in your photos, so Lightroom offers three further view modes—Loupe, Compare and Survey—each with different strengths.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2016, 03:49:17 pm »

Of course, I glossed over this section because having decades of experience using software, I know how to make and change selections with a mouse and keyboard.  I would have expected a prominent caution statement explaining that they were deviating from how selections are handled in Lr, versus all other software in the known world, including all other Adobe products.

As you say, it is explained. It's pretty clear too. Lightroom has differences from whatever other programs people came from, and no doubt many other prominent caution statements could be slapped across the text. But who reads manuals anyway, or pays sufficient attention to the details? So Adobe have adopted a conservative approach in the UI itself. You'll soon adjust to this, and if you don't you can switch both Library and Develop to AutoSync.
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dwswager

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2016, 04:24:18 pm »

As you say, it is explained. It's pretty clear too. Lightroom has differences from whatever other programs people came from, and no doubt many other prominent caution statements could be slapped across the text. But who reads manuals anyway, or pays sufficient attention to the details? So Adobe have adopted a conservative approach in the UI itself. You'll soon adjust to this, and if you don't you can switch both Library and Develop to AutoSync.

How items are selected and deselected and how the program handles those selections is fundamental to operating any software!  And since Lr totally violates normal convention on both sides of the equation, this should be the 1st thing discussed with any new user to the software.  No user can be successful with the software without understanding this.   I'm hard pressed to think of a piece of information about the software that a new user might require more than this one!  I've been on message boards for months and this is the first discussion I've been involved in that mentioned this little tid bit!

Hell, just knowing this moved me from beginner to intermediate (expert in the develop module functionality)!
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john beardsworth

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2016, 05:02:37 pm »

How items are selected and deselected and how the program handles those selections is fundamental to operating any software!  And since Lr totally violates normal convention on both sides of the equation, this should be the 1st thing discussed with any new user to the software.  No user can be successful with the software without understanding this.   I'm hard pressed to think of a piece of information about the software that a new user might require more than this one!  I've been on message boards for months and this is the first discussion I've been involved in that mentioned this little tid bit!

Probably because Adobe's conservative approach is in tune with how most users think? Yes, it's odd, but it's also pretty obvious once you start using the software.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2016, 05:50:41 pm »

... Lr totally violates normal convention...

I think you got carried away with that logic. In other programs, when you make a selection, you are supposed to do only one thing WITH it, collectively: move it, copy it, trash it, etc. LR provides additional functionality, to do things WITHIN the selection.

fdisilvestro

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Re: Filmstrip View in Develop Module?
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2016, 07:48:29 pm »

Of course, I glossed over this section because having decades of experience using software, I know how to make and change selections with a mouse and keyboard.  I would have expected a prominent caution statement explaining that they were deviating from how selections are handled in Lr, versus all other software in the known world, including all other Adobe products.

I guess you have not used AutoCAD  ;D . Having said that, I consider you raise an important issue that any tutorial, video or instructions should address in a prominent way (as it is usually the first lesson in any AutoCAD tutorial).

The contributors to this thread are long time expert users of LR for whom the way to handle selections is in their blood, so they (we) may not be the best reference for this issue and the usual response you get is RTFM.

The same issue happens with the import dialog, where it is not straightforward how to make selections of multiple images or group of images.

BTW, I do agree that once you know how to use it and having the option to use auto-sync or not (regardless of the default setting), it becomes straightforward an powerful.
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