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Author Topic: To Punch or Not To Punch  (Read 6963 times)

drmike

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2016, 03:49:31 am »

I don't think it cruel to capture what you see unless you intervene and set it up to look cruel. Is this image cruel?

Of course not how could it be thought cruel? What I think can be cruel is to open people up for ridicule and some shots by Parr could be interpreted that way although I doubt he intends that. In fact I'm struggling to recall a single cruel shot on his web site which I looked at yesterday. Damn it I'm sounding like a fanboy. I can think of one recent LuLa post which did seem to verge on exposing two larger people to ridicule and to be honest I felt that was the whole basis of the shot. There are certainly many street shots that I have seen elsewhere (and of course now struggle to recall) that are nasty and mean spirited.

Forgive me if I suggest that some street shots seem to work on the basis of wow look at that - not the one you just posted but certainly some. But I stray into my own personal issues with lots of photography and art which seems to be based for its impact/success on presenting the extraordinary. I can dismiss whole genre at a sweep that way :)

Mike
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stamper

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2016, 04:03:49 am »

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/22/world/kim-phuc-where-is-she-now/

Is this a cruel "street" photograph? It probably is but I would defend the person that captured it and posted it to the world.

Rob C

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2016, 04:29:59 am »

Of course not how could it be thought cruel? What I think can be cruel is to open people up for ridicule and some shots by Parr could be interpreted that way although I doubt he intends that. In fact I'm struggling to recall a single cruel shot on his web site which I looked at yesterday. Damn it I'm sounding like a fanboy. I can think of one recent LuLa post which did seem to verge on exposing two larger people to ridicule and to be honest I felt that was the whole basis of the shot. There are certainly many street shots that I have seen elsewhere (and of course now struggle to recall) that are nasty and mean spirited.

Forgive me if I suggest that some street shots seem to work on the basis of wow look at that - not the one you just posted but certainly some. But I stray into my own personal issues with lots of photography and art which seems to be based for its impact/success on presenting the extraordinary. I can dismiss whole genre at a sweep that way :)

Mike


Mike, that has to be the most naïve comment I've read in many a month.

Are you, then, also suggesting that Parr is as naïve, has no idea of what he's doing to people either by his selection of moment, location, of focal length, by the inclusion of the effects of hard flash and the excessive colouring, and that his cruelty has not the slightest connection with the marketability of his product? Heysoo!

If you do attempt to absolve him of such responsibility you are directly saying that he is incapable of knowing what he's doing with his cameras or where his technique is taking his 'work'. Thus, you brand him either ingenuous or idiot.

What you and his other apologists fail to understand is this: where the amateur is possibly doing it to test/please himself, Parr is doing it commercially, within the most 'respected' photo-agency in the world, whose sole interest in life is to pay the hills, generate income and, with luck, profit. If you fail to see that distinction of motive, then this post of mine is a waste of my time.

Rob C
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 04:33:24 am by Rob C »
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drmike

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2016, 10:12:25 am »

I regard Parr to be primarily an artist, certainly in the early days, who chose photography as his medium.

Show me three examples of cruelty. I know like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder but three should do it where we can agree in one case.

Mike
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drmike

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2016, 10:13:26 am »

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/22/world/kim-phuc-where-is-she-now/

Is this a cruel "street" photograph? It probably is but I would defend the person that captured it and posted it to the world.
Not street surely.
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Rob C

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2016, 11:58:01 am »

I regard Parr to be primarily an artist, certainly in the early days, who chose photography as his medium.

Show me three examples of cruelty. I know like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder but three should do it where we can agree in one case.

Mike

Just three? Conside his entire work on the lower-class British by the seaside. Alternatively, in the other direction, his take on the middle/upper classes. You get the full panoply of personal dislike both ways.

But hey, I don't need to try and convince you either way - it simply doesn't make any difference to anyone in the grander scheme of things.

Rob C

Rob C

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2016, 11:58:42 am »

I regard Parr to be primarily an artist, certainly in the early days, who chose photography as his medium.

Show me three examples of cruelty. I know like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder but three should do it where we can agree in one case.

Mike

Just three? Conside his entire work on the lower-class British by the seaside. Alternatively, in the other direction, his take on the middle/upper classes. You get the full panoply of personal dislike both ways.

But hey, I don't need to try and convince you either way - it simply doesn't make any difference to anyone, in the grander scheme of things.

Rob C

drmike

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2016, 01:09:18 pm »

As you say Rob neither of us need convince the other but if for example you are thinking of The Last Resort then I see little cruelty nor much beauty as such. He didn't look for pretty things.

Magnum seem Ok with you looking at the The Last resort images

I see no cruelty, I do see the technique you don't care for but it is effective.

We agree to differ :)

Mike
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2016, 01:28:46 pm »

If someone does something in public, or shows up publicly, and a photographer records it, the questions is who is doing the cruel (if so) deed, the subject or the photographer? In my view, it is the subject.

RSL

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2016, 02:34:33 pm »

+1. On the other hand, it's quite possible sometimes to do something unnecessarily cruel with a camera. Unfortunately, cruelty in that sense is a matter of perception. A couple months ago I bought Martin Parr's The Last Resort. My wife is convinced he's being cruel in that book. I'm convinced Slobodan's right and if there's cruelty there it's on the subjects.
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drmike

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2016, 02:43:13 pm »

My wife said the same thing she felt some of them bordered on cruel even this one which I think is quite innocuous. Myself I think he's clever about this and sort of invites a judgemental attitude towards the images. He draws the worst out of you as the viewer.

I argue that  this shot makes no sense otherwise. It's not exactly a wonderful subject or composition. So why did he take it and why do Magnum think it's worthy of being on their site? I confess I have never read or heard any analysis of that shot.

Mike
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2016, 03:07:29 pm »

... I argue that  this shot makes no sense otherwise. It's not exactly a wonderful subject or composition. So why did he take it and why do Magnum think it's worthy of being on their site? I confess I have never read or heard any analysis of that shot.

To me, it speaks about a certain kitsch subculture. It might look better if within a context.

Rob C

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2016, 03:13:53 pm »

My wife said the same thing she felt some of them bordered on cruel even this one which I think is quite innocuous. Myself I think he's clever about this and sort of invites a judgemental attitude towards the images. He draws the worst out of you as the viewer.

I argue that  this shot makes no sense otherwise. It's not exactly a wonderful subject or composition. So why did he take it and why do Magnum think it's worthy of being on their site? I confess I have never read or heard any analysis of that shot.

Mike


"My wife said the same thing she felt some of them bordered on cruel even this one which I think is quite innocuous. Myself I think he's clever about this and sort of invites a judgemental attitude towards the images. He draws the worst out of you as the viewer."

Your wife was right. She doesn't buy into the psycho bullshit in which some photographers like to wallow. Would you accept, then, that running over a dog can be excused because doing so makes an observer puke? Same skewed logic, I'm afraid.

"I argue that  this shot makes no sense otherwise. It's not exactly a wonderful subject or composition. So why did he take it and why do Magnum think it's worthy of being on their site? I confess I have never read or heard any analysis of that shot."

IMO, it's obvious: Magnum is dabbling in what it thinks is the 'art' market. Have you forgotten a very similar idea from Eggleston?

Like I wrote before, it's about money. All business has to be, or die. Magnum has no golden free pass.

Rob C


« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 03:27:09 pm by Rob C »
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RSL

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2016, 03:42:06 pm »

Would you accept, then, that running over a dog can be excused because doing so makes an observer puke? Same skewed logic, I'm afraid.

How about this, then, Rob? This happened to me in Vietnam and the memory still jars me. The poem is about as specific as a photograph. Is it cruel?

http://www.russ-lewis.com/Poetry/Poems/TheDog.html
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Rob C

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2016, 03:51:49 pm »

How about this, then, Rob? This happened to me in Vietnam and the memory still jars me. The poem is about as specific as a photograph. Is it cruel?

http://www.russ-lewis.com/Poetry/Poems/TheDog.html

That's beautiful.

And it is innocent of guilt because the dog wasn't sacrificed: it was ended by an accident which has brought lingering regret. I know that emotion well.

Rob

RSL

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2016, 04:12:14 pm »

I agree that the death of the dog wasn't cruel since it wasn't intentional. But how about the picture --  or in this case, the poem? One of my friends read that poem and it jarred him too. Is the poem cruel? Like some of Parr's work?
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drmike

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2016, 04:19:59 pm »

Drat it I did say I tried to ignore this thread but I just can't seem to let go now :)

Russ, the event was sad but hardly cruel as it was as you say an accident. Your poem is not exploiting that event although it refers to it in a respectful manner so surely it is not cruel.

My problem with saying Parr's shots are universally cruel is that I just can't see that aspect. Further than that I don't accept Rob's argument that everything boils down to money. It may for some but not everyone. Indeed it might cruel to suggest that in some cases :)

Just taking the Last Retort series I can't see that any one of those is cruel. No-one is held up to ridicule - even if by their own choice some might feel they are ridiculous. I think Parr invites viewers to judge and in turn they bring their own prejudices with them - as in my own dear wife's case. I know why she thinks some of them are cruel and it's more about her attitude to some people than the photographs or those people.

I fear I am getting out of my depth and seeming ever more like a Parr fanboy. I like his stuff but only that.

Mike
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drmike

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2016, 04:27:26 pm »

"I argue that  this shot makes no sense otherwise. It's not exactly a wonderful subject or composition. So why did he take it and why do Magnum think it's worthy of being on their site? I confess I have never read or heard any analysis of that shot."

IMO, it's obvious: Magnum is dabbling in what it thinks is the 'art' market. Have you forgotten a very similar idea from Eggleston?


I am familiar with the Eggleston photograph and have read more about that one. As far as I can tell the shots are similar in subject matter but different in intent. Bear in mind the Eggleston show was I believe taken in an apartment where there was a debauched party taking place while Parr's shot is a Black Country pub. I can't believe they were taken for the same reasons. I think Parr's shot is a very clever and British thing inviting one to make judgements about that pub - any Brit would see that as a pub light or maybe restaurant. You look at it in detail and you can be tempted into concluding things about the people who manage the light. That's my belief anyway. I'd love to know what critics say or Parr himself.

I'd be stunned if Magnum made any money from that shot and I'd be interested how a Magnum portfolio is assembled.

Mike
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Rob C

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2016, 04:58:06 pm »

I agree that the death of the dog wasn't cruel since it wasn't intentional. But how about the picture --  or in this case, the poem? One of my friends read that poem and it jarred him too. Is the poem cruel? Like some of Parr's work?

Absolutely not a cruel poem; as I said, it's a beautiful set of words.

Having your emotions moved by beautiful words woven around a sad event is, as in this instance, in no way that I can imagine exploitative, which is what I think Parr is absolutely all about in that sort of work of his of which we speak: I feel he exploits the subjects and denies them even a smidgen of dignity. If they have none, then even worse to show that: they don't even have a chance.

Rob C

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Re: To Punch or Not To Punch
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2016, 05:15:40 pm »

I am familiar with the Eggleston photograph and have read more about that one. As far as I can tell the shots are similar in subject matter but different in intent. Bear in mind the Eggleston show was I believe taken in an apartment where there was a debauched party taking place while Parr's shot is a Black Country pub. I can't believe they were taken for the same reasons. I think Parr's shot is a very clever and British thing inviting one to make judgements about that pub - any Brit would see that as a pub light or maybe restaurant. You look at it in detail and you can be tempted into concluding things about the people who manage the light. That's my belief anyway. I'd love to know what critics say or Parr himself.

I'd be stunned if Magnum made any money from that shot and I'd be interested how a Magnum portfolio is assembled.

Mike

I would also be stunned if/that Eggleston made any money from it. However, as he clearly fills galleries, then he must be making enough of it to keep the galleries happy with him. And people buy names. Back to money, and the investment thereof.

As for intent regarding those two images of light fixtures; light fixtures, last time I gave them a thought, are inanimate: you can call them anything you like, photograph them as well or as badly as you can, and they don't give a shit either way. But, unlike people who do care about what you do with them, they are perfectly capable of blowing your socks right off and filling the room with the smell of singed flesh.

Anyway, that a photograph of a red ceiling was made during an orgy, or not, is not visible in the image; is that reason to add imaginary value, of something invisible; something that might not even be true in the first place?

Rob
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