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Author Topic: Bikers Sunday  (Read 6581 times)

Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2016, 06:31:59 am »

And there's no shortage of those.


That's a great shot, Russ.

Something I'd address to both yourself and to Slobodan: have you considered how different and perhaps, more a(r)tmospheric these kinds of images might look produced with far less interest/concentration on so-called 'high' print quality (I take that term to cover both paper and monitor appearance)?

There's a chap over on the Leica Mono thread who does great street work, but IMO he blows it quite consistently by making it look like a 4x5 production with tripod. To me, that negates the entire sense of 'adventure' (or even of daring) that such photographs can inspire. I other words, apart from images where the subject's the bike, per se, where glossy chrome is beautiful, I always feel that making the bikers look glossy too defeats the whole thing so efficiently. I can't imagine Marlon Brando in high gloss and yet still looking impressive.

Especially with older guys with film experience, where the genus began, I feel that they must still have the memory of how a gutsy and gritty look can achieve what PS-pretty fails to do.

Just an idea...

Rob

GrahamBy

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2016, 07:12:51 am »

I have to say I'm very ambivalent about the biker culture. I grew up with motorcycles: my father was a multiple winner of a race that stood as the Australian championship in road racing, represented Scotland against England in speedway, and his brother was still racing in his 50's, when I was in my teens. I raced MX and roadrace for over 30 years.

The biker culture, otoh, was a mixture of a hardcore organised crime group and alcoholic wannabe outlaws. The mythical Harley Davidson was an unreliable piece of badly constructed and out-dated technology, to the point that the bikes were reserved for ceremonial purposes: if you were going to a shoot-out, you took a car. Drug transport was, pragmatically, by truck.

HD was re-launched in the 80's as a "lifestyle", with modern Japanese electronics and manufacturing standards grafted onto the 50's era mechanical design. At that point it became an image thing for accountants to pretend to be bad-ass on the weekend. They also kept the best frame straightener in Melbourne in business, since the bikes were easily bent, frequently crashed and readily kicked back into shape. That kept the Martin brothers afloat so they could do what they loved, building and repairing race bikes. A few of the poseurs were injured or killed because they didn't understand that wearing "colours" is a serious and dangerous activity that threatened the dignity of the real gangs. A few more because the bikes still exhibit 1950's standards of road-holding and braking, or because Gang Dignity required riding through red-lights and stop-signs without slowing.

In the US of course, the "biker" segment of the market and its mythology is much more important, but when I see loving polished late-model bikes like these, especially with some theme like "Bikers for Jesus"... well, it's an interesting sub-culture... but it makes me think of McBeth: "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

Nice photos though :)
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Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 09:08:34 am »

I have to say I'm very ambivalent about the biker culture. I grew up with motorcycles: my father was a multiple winner of a race that stood as the Australian championship in road racing, represented Scotland against England in speedway, and his brother was still racing in his 50's, when I was in my teens. I raced MX and roadrace for over 30 years.

The biker culture, otoh, was a mixture of a hardcore organised crime group and alcoholic wannabe outlaws. The mythical Harley Davidson was an unreliable piece of badly constructed and out-dated technology, to the point that the bikes were reserved for ceremonial purposes: if you were going to a shoot-out, you took a car. Drug transport was, pragmatically, by truck.

HD was re-launched in the 80's as a "lifestyle", with modern Japanese electronics and manufacturing standards grafted onto the 50's era mechanical design. At that point it became an image thing for accountants to pretend to be bad-ass on the weekend. They also kept the best frame straightener in Melbourne in business, since the bikes were easily bent, frequently crashed and readily kicked back into shape. That kept the Martin brothers afloat so they could do what they loved, building and repairing race bikes. A few of the poseurs were injured or killed because they didn't understand that wearing "colours" is a serious and dangerous activity that threatened the dignity of the real gangs. A few more because the bikes still exhibit 1950's standards of road-holding and braking, or because Gang Dignity required riding through red-lights and stop-signs without slowing.

In the US of course, the "biker" segment of the market and its mythology is much more important, but when I see loving polished late-model bikes like these, especially with some theme like "Bikers for Jesus"... well, it's an interesting sub-culture... but it makes me think of McBeth: "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

Nice photos though :)


An interesting phenomenon, nonetheless. I think I'd rather a benevolent pretend sub-culture than the real thing, if that inevitably means crime. On the other hand, isn't it a bit self-defeating, in that the read-dealers must be obvious to the police forces... unless the latter may prefer to turn blind eyes and avoid confrontations.

Is it, I wonder, an expression of self, of freedom, or simply the manifestation of empty minds? But still slighty glamorous for all that.

Rob C

RSL

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2016, 09:15:10 am »

I have to say I'm very ambivalent about the biker culture.

Gotta run to an appointment, but before I take off let me point out that "biker culture" is an oxymoron.
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Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2016, 09:41:03 am »

Gotta run to an appointment, but before I take off let me point out that "biker culture" is an oxymoron.

Sharp! Sharp!

Rob C

GrahamBy

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2016, 09:53:45 am »

must be obvious to the police forces... unless the latter may prefer to turn blind eyes and avoid confrontations

Exactly that. The Hell's Angels had a chapter house near me in Melbourne, which was a highly visible bunker with high walls, reinforced gates, razor wire...

There were easier ways for a cop to get ahead, certainly easier ways to get rich, that trying to deal with the Angels or the Commancheros (or the local Italian mafia).
Occasionally they were obliged to do something when there was a too-visible piling up of bodies in a public place (btw, having a Capo assassinated in your pizzeria
turns out to be bad for business, but a shoot-out between rival bikie gangs in a hotel car park, not so much).

Anyway, something for the value of not-sharp images for conveying atmosphere: stills shot on sets of Wong Ka Wai's films.

http://culturainquieta.com/es/foto/item/9688-el-universo-de-wong-kar-wai-fotografiado-por-wing-shya.html
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Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2016, 10:26:21 am »

Exactly that. The Hell's Angels had a chapter house near me in Melbourne, which was a highly visible bunker with high walls, reinforced gates, razor wire...

There were easier ways for a cop to get ahead, certainly easier ways to get rich, that trying to deal with the Angels or the Commancheros (or the local Italian mafia).
Occasionally they were obliged to do something when there was a too-visible piling up of bodies in a public place (btw, having a Capo assassinated in your pizzeria
turns out to be bad for business, but a shoot-out between rival bikie gangs in a hotel car park, not so much).

Anyway, something for the value of not-sharp images for conveying atmosphere: stills shot on sets of Wong Ka Wai's films.

http://culturainquieta.com/es/foto/item/9688-el-universo-de-wong-kar-wai-fotografiado-por-wing-shya.html


Thanks for the link! That silhouette in the car: wonderful!

I always want to do this sort of image, but the very few chances that come my way today are wasted because I never remember, and instead try to make fashion pictures again instead, which is so bloody Pavlovian Pooch that it drives me mad immediately I get home and see what I've done! When it's too effin' late, and the opportunity has passed.

But it's all irony: my best work was ever in my portfolio (book) which almost never included actual work images. Irony, because the book got me the commercial work, but I "wasn't encouraged" to do similar for clients... Having written some days ago about the number of photographer suicides, it doesn't really seem so strange when you consider the inner conflicts the job creates. In the latter years of the career, I didn't even have a book. I gave up and just shot what came along as best I could, helped by the fact that I pretty much gave up hunting new blood and, by location, could no longer take on day-to-day shoots anyway, so I created my own long-term projects for people, i.e. calendars.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2016, 03:55:53 pm »

Regarding the little matter of too much enhanced reality: would any of these have gained anything by being produced in higher then high definition? I think not. If anything, it's their 'imperfect' quality that makes them memorably appealing and real.

http://c41.net/articles/eve-arnold/

Rob

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2016, 04:06:59 pm »

You're right, Rob. Tri-X pushed beyond ASA 800 produced some wonderful grain effects. I think I can get the same effect with Silver Efex Pro. I just haven't tried. Another thing that film's slower ASA gave you was motion in your subjects. If you were shooting in dim light at f/8 (f/8 and be there) your shutter speed usually was around 1/30, or even 1/15. You can get the same effect with digital by deliberately shooting at a low shutter speed. VR -- vibration reduction will let you shoot at very slow speeds and not show camera motion, so you can grab subject motion even better than you could with film. Stamper did some interesting subject motion stuff not long ago.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2016, 05:36:27 pm »

For Rob only:

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2016, 07:51:12 pm »

For Rob only:
Not just for Rob. I am also old enough to appreciate that you went back and reshot the number 1 biker with Tri-X.
Thanks for that.

Eric
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RSL

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2016, 07:59:38 pm »

Must have been pushed to 1600 ASA.
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Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2016, 03:58:30 am »

For Rob only:

Nope, Slobodan, not right.

The tonality is all wrong for pushed film, as are the highlights. Pouring porridge onto a photograph doesn't change what's in the negative file, only what's still visible on the reproduction.

These tricks are just that: can't fake love.

;-)

Rob

P.S.

To explain: the confusion starts with a basic misunderstanding about the nature of film and its relationship with exposure.

It's been the romantic notion of photography magazine writers to wax eloquent about raising (and rating) film to several times its stated speed. That, in my view, has caused so much confusion that those writers should be prosecuted!

1. Film has but one ASA, DIN or ISO, call it as you wish, and that's the one with which the makers gave it birth. Every exposure departure from the maker's recommendation doesn't change the film's speed, it simply means that you are choosing either to over- or underexpose that film. In some cases, this still works when you choose, intentionally, to ignore either very dark or very bright parts of a scene.

2. Underexposing and pushing (extending) development times. When you underexpose, you deny the film sufficient exposure to light to capture detail in shadow areas, to varying degrees of underexposure, depending on how dark those shadow areas you want to record actually are.

3. Extending development. This doesn't change the exposure that you gave to the film - it's no magical second-chance at changing the original exposure. All that it does is send the areas that should be highlights into a false state of being: rather than be a sliding gradation of tonality from light grey to pure white, that area of the negative is blocked up (to varying degrees) by overdevelopment and can become a solid block of white (on the print).

Meanwhile, in the shadow areas, the missing detail due to underexposure is still missing. What the overdevelopment does is increase the contrast within those tones that you have managed to record, and that should, ideally, be smoothly-graded mid-tones, and give them a false degree of contrast which makes them look unnatural.

4. Now, take Slobodan's biker with faked grain. What you can see there is this: dark shadow areas with plenty of tonal separation, with a layer of mess applied to the surface. If it had been genuine underexposure, those separate dark tones wouldn't be there: you'd just have a solid dark mass due to unrecorded detail.

Within the highlights, the image shows 'grain' that also gives the lie to the picture: if those had been genuine, blocked film highlights, they wouldn't show grain: they'd be pure white. To show grain you need to be able to show the spaces betwen the grain, which you just can't do if no light gets through that part of the negative and onto the paper. Hence the classical blocks of pure white in genuine film overdevelopment and/or overexposure. This often used to be aped/faked in fashion pictures, where faces would be bleached out to give a sense of high contrast/high key; also, if you look at W. Eugene S's stuff, he does exactly the same sort of highlight bleaching, even, sometimes, where no highlight would logically have existed: it's all to create an effect and to brighten up what might otherwise be a boringly flat picture.

This is certainly all old news to old snappers, but if you come directly to the subject with only digital in your life, you could never know: you have to suffer the problems and pay your dues. Digital mistakes look different.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 10:23:44 am by Rob C »
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2016, 09:38:02 am »

Well put, Rob.

I thought I was the only one on LuLa old enough to know how film behaved. Your technical analysis is absolutely correct on all points.
But it would have been more convincing if you had illustrated it with a photo of, say, a water sprite.   ;)

Eric
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RSL

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2016, 09:52:38 am »

Here's an example of what Rob's talking about. The B&W is a simulation of Ilford HP-5 under fairly dim lighting conditions. If I dig long enough I may be able to find some actual scans from Ilford B&W's to further illustrate the point. At first I was going to do the Ilford simulation with "Drunk Chicks Dig Me," but the light's too good -- as it was in Slobodan's example. With good light there's almost no grain.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 10:39:48 am by RSL »
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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2016, 10:04:57 am »

Found one. I think I've posted this before. I shot it in 1968 in San Francisco -- Ilford HP-4. It illustrates Rob's point in the flesh.
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Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2016, 10:49:08 am »

Thanks for illustrating the points for me!

But even that's not the end of it: if you took Tri X and HP3/4 and compared them, you'd discover that the Kodak film had a tighter grain distribution, whereas the Ilford offering had a more irregular, rolling look to its grain pattern. Also, where they were both rated at 400 ASA, I found that Ilford's HP3/4 had to be rated at 320 ASA if I wanted to get enough shadow detail to suit my ways.

Now, development times were one thing, officially, but I discovered that my own times were much shorter. Presumably this was because I was more interested in getting as wide a range of tones as possible rather than trying to get fast shutter speeds all the time, and a flatter neg was better for me. On top of that, I found, somewhat to my surprise, that HP3/4 was great in 135 format but that TXP 120 was the way to fly on 120 format. Whether this was due to different levels of inherent contrast between Nikkor and Zeiss optics, I'm not sure, but that's how it was. On 135 format, of course, where possible I did tend to use the slower 125 ASA FP3/4 films for obvious advantages of finer grain.

To wrap this up, more or less: in the day, it was never my desire to produce/accentuate grain; grain was simply an unavoidable by-product of format and film selection. It's only in retrospect, and when I see people attempting to produce, digitally, a style of photography (street) that had its apogee in the 50s, that this starts to matter to me and cause a bit of pain. If folks want to ape a genre, then its fairly clear to me that everything needs to fit the pattern of the original if it's to have validity. If not, then it's something else. Technically speaking, superior snaps may well come from digital, but the soul ain't there no more within the game if you lose the 'grabbed' look. It's supposed to be an art, isn't it? IMO.

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2016, 11:42:24 am »

... Hence the classical blocks of pure white in genuine film overdevelopment and/or overexposure. This often used to be aped/faked in fashion pictures, where faces would be bleached out to give a sense of high contrast/high key...

Oh, hell no, Rob!

If I'd bleach out this dude's face, I'd be accused of a racist whitewashing ;)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2016, 11:57:20 am »

Ok, Rob, let's see if the history lesson is paying off :)*

(yes, the obligatory smiley, just in case someone thought I was actually being serious by pouring porridge onto the file)

Rob C

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Re: Bikers Sunday
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2016, 12:11:02 pm »

Oh, hell no, Rob!

If I'd bleach out this dude's face, I'd be accused of a racist whitewashing ;)

The crazy times in which we live...

Rob
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