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Author Topic: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.  (Read 7488 times)

Theodoros

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EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« on: May 14, 2016, 07:53:16 pm »


It is official, Ebony won't be making anymore cameras after the 1st half of 2016 ends... http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=2
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larkis

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2016, 11:09:25 pm »

It is official, Ebony won't be making anymore cameras after the 1st half of 2016 ends... http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=2

Wow, to bad. I have one of their 4x5 cameras and it's a beautiful instrument. To bad it's time has passed with everything being digital and much more convenient to use. It has been getting a lot less use since I switched to the Pentax 645D and Z cameras.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2016, 01:50:57 am »

Very sad to hear this, but I have to confess that my 45SU has been very little usage these past years.

I still think those are the best LF cameras!

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 02:27:50 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Theodoros

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 07:29:19 am »

I'm sad too, but I think more makers that only have "traditional designs" in their line will follow...  It's like "history repeats itself" as it happened in the past...
It is a tradition with the view camera market, that whenever a smaller image area appears which can offer enough image quality yet causing a significant reduction in costs with only insignificant to consider reduction in image quality, the makers that can't adapt their designs as to integrate the smaller image area to vanish... It has happened with sheet film when 5x4 arrived and dominated the market, it has happened with 120 film which caused current cameras of 2x3 image area size to be the "standard" of the market, it will happen again now with the mirrorless DSLRs offering 36x24 image area and shutter included...

Those makers that have provision in their designs as to be converted for 35mm image areas and offer an upgrade path on their line for one to upgrade into larger image areas in the future, will make it. The makers  who ask for one to start a level higher (with MFDB or 120 film) which with digital is Top end, won't make it IMO...

It seems that photographers value higher the (huge) benefits of use that the view camera offers than the quality benefit the image area might offer... IMO, they are right to think this way... The benefits for one to (correctly) use a view camera is irreplaceable for one to miss, the (further) improvement of the light sensitive area can then be a future upgrade plan.
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torger

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2016, 02:09:39 pm »

Still quite a few makers left, I counted to seven different brands on Badger Graphic's web.

What eventually will kill off large format I think is that the suppliers of film, shutters and lenses will stop manufacturing. Companies that do those things are larger and have other more profitable business, so they can just decide to cut that odd branch, like Schneider recently did with large format.

The camera body itself can be realized with low tech, and thus a small shop of only a handful of people could work at a niche worldwide market. However lenses, shutters and film(?) require higher tech and larger company backing.

But when will this happen? I would not be surprised if large format film is still around in ten years from now. In artistic photography it will not grow old, so I think there will be a demand. The question is if it will be large enough for the bigger players to continue producing the necessary raw materials...
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Theodoros

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 07:06:59 am »

Still quite a few makers left, I counted to seven different brands on Badger Graphic's web.

What eventually will kill off large format I think is that the suppliers of film, shutters and lenses will stop manufacturing. Companies that do those things are larger and have other more profitable business, so they can just decide to cut that odd branch, like Schneider recently did with large format.

The camera body itself can be realized with low tech, and thus a small shop of only a handful of people could work at a niche worldwide market. However lenses, shutters and film(?) require higher tech and larger company backing.

But when will this happen? I would not be surprised if large format film is still around in ten years from now. In artistic photography it will not grow old, so I think there will be a demand. The question is if it will be large enough for the bigger players to continue producing the necessary raw materials...

Very well pointed... I fully agree on the above, I guess though that most people out of those that use film, use up to 6x9 120mm film anyway... which makes a lot of sense with todays films quality as larger areas of sheet film have little more improvement of quality to offer than it used to be in the past, especially if one uses a multishot MFDB along with an even lightbox to digitise the film after developing it, instead of scanning it.

I believe at the end 120 roll film will be the only one out of all other formats that will make it in the future...



 

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BJL

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I believe at the end 120 roll film will be the only one out of all other formats that will make it in the future...
An interesting speculation.  It does seem that 120 roll film cameras are going to outlive 35mm film SLRs, since of the latter, only the Nikon F6 and the Cosina-produced Nikon FM10 are still on the market (and I am fairly sure that the F6 lives on only though stocks in the warehouse).  But at the university where I work, I still see lots of photography students carrying 35mm film SLRs, so simple mostly mechanical cameras that be made in small volume could live on.

Another cause for optimism: so long as a photographic emulsion is still in production, it seems fairly easy to coat it in small batches onto uncommon film formats, like 5"x4" and 10"x8" sheet film, and even the more exotic sizes that Ilford lets people order once a year: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20163291435591962.pdf

So I predict or hope that the artistic and hobbyist market will keep various film formats alive, even if all the professional uses move to digital.
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Theodoros

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An interesting speculation.  It does seem that 120 roll film cameras are going to outlive 35mm film SLRs, since of the latter, only the Nikon F6 and the Cosina-produced Nikon FM10 are still on the market (and I am fairly sure that the F6 lives on only though stocks in the warehouse).  But at the university where I work, I still see lots of photography students carrying 35mm film SLRs, so simple mostly mechanical cameras that be made in small volume could live on.

Another cause for optimism: so long as a photographic emulsion is still in production, it seems fairly easy to coat it in small batches onto uncommon film formats, like 5"x4" and 10"x8" sheet film, and even the more exotic sizes that Ilford lets people order once a year: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20163291435591962.pdf

So I predict or hope that the artistic and hobbyist market will keep various film formats alive, even if all the professional uses move to digital.

Its not a speculation its an estimation based on the following:

1. Out of all makers that ever made a 35mm camera, only Leica bothered to make a new film release of the m camera from 2000 after (the ones you mention out of Nikon are both past designs). Obviously, Leica's release is more aimed to support Leica's image and tradition than provide profits to the maker.

2. The latest releases of Hasselblad, all support film and then there is a wide base of Medium Format cameras that are not compatible with modern MFDBs, or difficult to support, or financially unwise to do so... Much of this equipment is both capable, but makes sense as a choice for users of DSLRs as it is easily accessible and cheap to invest on if purchased S/H, but gives access to film, ability to familiarize with MF to young photographers and high resolution access if scanned. So, many think of it as an alternative as to have instead of MFDB next to their DSLRs...

3. The view camera has turned to 120 film as the major media used on them many years ago... The 6x9 cameras are the main force for all makers lines and additionally most view camera users of view cameras have added 6x7/6x9 120 film backs for them...

4. 120 film is used on many later HQ film releases from major cinema studios because of the looks and tradition...

All and all, 120 film seems a good compromise for quality/resolution, it is much cheaper than sheet film to use, not much more expensive than 35mm, easy to develop, offers much better quality than 35mm film if scanned, doesn't give away much as far as IQ is concerned to sheet film, it is easily accessible, easy to develop, it is compatible with many excellent lenses and thus makes more sense than the rest.
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design_freak

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 08:46:09 am »

which makes a lot of sense with todays films quality as larger areas of sheet film have little more improvement of quality to offer than it used to be in the past, especially if one uses a multishot MFDB along with an even lightbox to digitise the film after developing it, instead of scanning it.


As I understand it, the photo of the film with the multi shot digital back provides better quality than a scan?
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Best regards,
DF

Doug Peterson

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 09:10:42 am »

As I understand it, the photo of the film with the multi shot digital back provides better quality than a scan?

No need for multishot (most high-end cultural heritage digitization moved away from multishot many years ago). We've compared to many legacy systems like Tango and Imacon. It's not really even that close anymore. If you carefully control the environment (alignment, parallelism, focus accuracy, focus stability, temperature, shutter vibration, external vibration, lens quality etc etc etc) as we do in our DTDCH Film Scanning Kit you can easily outperform even the "gold standard" systems of a decade ago (the last time any meaningful R+D went into legacy scanning systems).

Theodoros

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 09:18:32 am »

As I understand it, the photo of the film with the multi shot digital back provides better quality than a scan?

My experience says that it does... It is visibly better too if done right.
What is even more important however, is that if one scans film this way and also stitches so that 1:1 (equal surface of film - for equal surface of sensor digitized and then stitched - 4 16x multishot shots for 6x8/6x9 film, 9 shots for 4X5 sheet film) scan is done and 120 film is compared to larger sheet film.

1. The information extracted out of film is maximized to an impressive extend never experienced before,
2. Scanning larger than 120 film seems to loose the additional benefits of resolution/noise that one expects out using a larger (than 120) film area... Obviously this is because the resolving power of the method is so good, that the handicap in per area resolution of the larger image circle lenses with respect to MF lenses is exposed...

It is impressive the amount of information that is hidden (and remains unknown unless one uses the best scanning method possible) on the film surface... Clearly Gursky and many more out of TOP artists (and some top cinematographers too) have a reason to insist in films for what they do...
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design_freak

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 09:22:35 am »

No need for multishot (most high-end cultural heritage digitization moved away from multishot many years ago). We've compared to many legacy systems like Tango and Imacon. It's not really even that close anymore. If you carefully control the environment (alignment, parallelism, focus accuracy, focus stability, temperature, shutter vibration, external vibration, lens quality etc etc etc) as we do in our DTDCH Film Scanning Kit you can easily outperform even the "gold standard" systems of a decade ago (the last time any meaningful R+D went into legacy scanning systems).

You can share files like this? (Drum scanner vs MFDB) Let say 4x5"
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Best regards,
DF

Theodoros

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 09:29:10 am »

No need for multishot (most high-end cultural heritage digitization moved away from multishot many years ago). We've compared to many legacy systems like Tango and Imacon. It's not really even that close anymore. If you carefully control the environment (alignment, parallelism, focus accuracy, focus stability, temperature, shutter vibration, external vibration, lens quality etc etc etc) as we do in our DTDCH Film Scanning Kit you can easily outperform even the "gold standard" systems of a decade ago (the last time any meaningful R+D went into legacy scanning systems).

Try replacing the single shot back you are using with an old 16X multishot back and then talk... You want a bet? I'll bet you anything....  It is true that single shot backs have been improved (due to latest software more than due to tech advancement), it is also true that the difference with multishot backs varies (but always in favor to the multishot back) depending on the complexity of the subject (the more complex the subject, the more it shows)... Well, guess what... shooting film at 1:1 image area is the most demanding out of all situations...  As I said before, do you want a bet? Will you loose the equipment that you will use for the job if I beat it?  I will....  ;)
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torger

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 09:32:23 am »

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torger

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 09:34:53 am »

Film is still big among artists, at least here in Europe. I don't know about the younger generation though. It's a difference if you when you started you had to learn film, today it's optional...
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Theodoros

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2016, 10:21:31 am »

Film is still big among artists, at least here in Europe. I don't know about the younger generation though. It's a difference if you when you started you had to learn film, today it's optional...

Thanks for the post... it matches with my own observations too... However, it is unfair for multishot backs as there is a danger that one may conclude that IQ-180 is some "exeptionally resolving devise" (as many believe it is...). Of course one can't use a multishot back and do the same (landscape) test, but it does show the capabilities of film and why so many artists insist on it... Heck... I can even remember some trolls posting here some (false) information that Gursky ...changed to ...a Phase One back!  ;D :o :-X :P

My (up to now) conclusions are, that stills and film digitization (which -of course- is a still capture) are best done with multishot and an extremely good lens and then there is room for MFDB (but of medium and lower resolution) for less demanding applications and then it should be film for the most demanding of photographic applications... Never the less, multishot shouldn't be put in the same "box" as single shot backs, nor it is comparable... Only the complete absence of digital artifacts is enough for one to understand the superiority of multishot with respect to a single shot MFDB (or other device that uses interpolation) for scanning negatives...

That's why Doug will never accept the bet call and will prefer to sit aside and work on the "who ever questions P1 for their choices is an enemy" idea...  ;)  8)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2016, 10:32:08 am »

Hi,



She has a doctorate in reactor physics and an RZ67.

Best regards
Erik


Film is still big among artists, at least here in Europe. I don't know about the younger generation though. It's a difference if you when you started you had to learn film, today it's optional...
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Erik Kaffehr
 

torger

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2016, 10:54:39 am »

Gregory Crewdson did change from 8x10" to a Phase One digital back (a recent interview here, good read if you like Crewdson's work: http://petapixel.com/2016/05/18/interview-gregory-crewdson/). So not all famous artists use film, and Gursky does have a digital post-processing workflow like most film shooters have today.
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Theodoros

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2016, 11:04:53 am »

Hi,

She has a doctorate in reactor physics and an RZ67.

Best regards
Erik

RZ 67 with film... Wiser than many here that want even smaller pixels and more resolution out of their (already full of problems due to interpolation and Bayer pattern) sensors... I don't oppose the use of an MFDB by no means... (to the contradict, I believe that DSLRs have even more problems with their tiny pixels) but having people that spend fortunes to downgrade instead of upgrating? ...why? ...it is still a mistery to me! 

Keep your 22mp back people (and if it is a multishot version never let it go) and buy some film backs, A GOOD OLD view camera and tons of film instead if you really want to  upgrade... Just my two cents...  ;) Think of it this way instead of looking at what web trolls say... You'll be doing the same as world's best photographers do!
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Doug Peterson

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Re: EBONY out of business by the 30th of June.
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2016, 11:10:14 am »

That's why Doug will never accept the bet call and will prefer to sit aside and work on the "who ever questions P1 for their choices is an enemy" idea...  ;)  8)

It's too bad you never travel to NYC. You have some impression of me that I don't think is correct and I think a couple pints of beer could clear it up.

We could even do your desired test (it's one I've done many times) so you can see why these Cultural Heritage Digitization teams (and many more) use high-res phase systems :).
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